When to intervene in possible kidnapping?

This is a discussion on When to intervene in possible kidnapping? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I was wondering the other day, what would make me physically intervene with a possible kidnapping, rather than just call the police. So, you see ...

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Thread: When to intervene in possible kidnapping?

  1. #1
    Member Array TwoRavens's Avatar
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    Question When to intervene in possible kidnapping?

    I was wondering the other day, what would make me physically intervene with a possible kidnapping, rather than just call the police.

    So, you see a woman being forced into a car by a man, what factors would influence your reaction, and what reaction would that be?

    e.g. If abductee is yelling for help, or if I see gun/knife...
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    I think the key item here is - sight of a gun or knife. Without that and knowing how folks can holler - well just maybe - it's Mrs Average being somewhat strongly coerced to get the heck back in the car, after an abortive or over expensive shopping spree!!!

    The sight of armed force being applied toward another would make the possibility of instant action something to rapidly consider - no time being available for a 911 call. Whether tho it would be prudent is another matter as a third party to the scene.

    I doubt this could be anticipated so as to make a decision in advance - so much would depend on the exact scenario. If somehow I felt the threat was so real as to be immediately life-threatening for the potential 'hostage' then maybe I'd feel justified in giving one very loud verbal challenge from low ready with ability to immediately engage .

    Trouble is - knowing the threat degree and considering that threat was NOT, at that point - against us personally. Could this indeed be a stupid and crazy macho guy, with little or no intent to harm but trying to ''make a point''! No real way of knowing right then and there but - a verbal challenge just might make things clearer - because the aggressor would if sane and not meaning harm - possibly go into a surrended mode - or not!!

    Trouble is if we challenge - do we ''invite'' a response such that a fight ensues anyways.?

    In truth right now I am not sure as to being able to provide a ''blanket'' suggestion for such a scenario. The actual perceived ''mood'' of the aggressor might be something that would help in decision making. Then of course some might even say - look the other way - what business is this of mine?

    I doubt tho presented with this scene I could just turn the other way and ignore. Biggest problem is analysis of the TRUE threat level.

    Let's see what other folks think here. I will think further, having just rambled as a ''thinking out loud'' excercize.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    Good Thread Topic

    I'm POSITIVE that there is NOT any one correct one answer so.... "Ditto" p95Carry.
    Certainly if you have time call 911 FIRST then absolutely DO THAT...and give the location to a possible violent kidnapping and the plate # and description of the vehicle ~ and quickly put your phone on "speaker"...leave the line open because "if and when" you even modestly intervene you ARE going to provoke some unknown response from the perp....if he is really a perp. It will help to have that tape recorded. Whatever may happen.
    That minute that you spend on the phone could also save your own life.
    This is a tough call because "PEOPLE" these days do not realize how their actions in public can be SERIOUSLY misconstrued by others.
    That is why the Police do not know what is going on half the time with strangers/citizens who spazz out in public.
    Couples and Parents etc., sometimes do not know how to act in public.

    When an adult male yells: "Get In The Car ~ Get In The Car!!!" to a little kid...and chucks the kid into the car...IS IT A POSSIBLE KIDNAPPING in the mall parking lot? ~ Or...did the kid wander away in the mall & "DAD" just found him playing pinball after an hour of "mall searching" & got all POed & said..."Let's Go Home!"
    If you're not 100% exactly sure what is going on then you Had Better Not pop "Daddy" in the head with a bullet.
    You might want to either block the vehicle in (if possible) or follow it & give a cell phone "play to play" to 911 dispatch.
    If you do block the vehicle then just be prepared for somebody that is already POed or crazy to get seriously POed at you too.

    If it REALLY IS an abduction then...how qualified are you to single~handedly resolve the situation and bring it to a happy conclusion with the victim alive and well?
    Only you can answer that & it will probably NEVER go the way you think it will.
    If the BG already has the female restrained then she is already in deep doo doo. But, is that his wife? Ex~girfriend Stood up Prom date.

    You could get behind solid cover (ready your holstered firearm) & start loudly yelling for him to get away from the girl/woman.
    Doing that in itself will have already "changed his game plan" because he will at least know that now he can be identified & so can the vehicle. He will know that somebody else knows that SOMETHING has taken place.
    Will you ever Know In advance what his reaction will be? No.
    He could Yell Back..."Hey it's my wife you freaking idiot...mind your own damn business." - He could "turn tail" & run away...he could pop the girl in the head & start coming after you. He could just ignore you & just attempt to drive away. He could pull a gun out of his pants and commit suicide.
    You'll never know ahead of time.
    I sure would rather that he did as liitle as possible until the place was surrounded with patrol cars. It's a good thread. We'll se what others hafta say.
    Usually it's impossible to answer a general forum question presented like yours since an actual DETAILED scenario needs to be laid out in order for folks to say how they would react in THAT exact situation.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Hi Guys, yes it is a good thread! First off there are lurkers prowling the shopping centers as some prowl these forums. They are looking for women of all ages and sizes to make verbal contact with. A women may be waiting for her husband to pick her up from shopping and if your alert you will see one or more cars approach her and the driver say something. The situation is real regardless of setting, they are out there looking all the time!!!
    In our lifetime can anyone remember this number of children getting killed by sex offenders???
    Do you intervene, speaking for myself, if I know the person in trouble or see signs of combat(male hitting female) I will do what I can. We don't all have a firearm handy(illegal in my state in most cases), we don't all have a cell phone handy nor do we know all the great karote moves.
    With the increase of gang activity the attempts to take a person will be absolute and when you show up with your best 6 shooter 3 other guys will pull out their ak47's and end the argument. Not only do law abbiding people have a problem helping but cops are going to be hard pressed at somepoint facing really bad guys much different then we have seen in the past.
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    May the splinters never point the wrong way.
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    Member Array TwoRavens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter
    Certainly if you have time call 911 FIRST then absolutely DO THAT...and give the location to a possible violent kidnapping and the plate # and description of the vehicle ~ and quickly put your phone on "speaker"...leave the line open because "if and when" you even modestly intervene you ARE going to provoke some unknown response from the perp
    Agreed, that is the baseline, given enough yelling/violence by the guy.


    Usually it's impossible to answer a general forum question presented like yours since an actual DETAILED scenario needs to be laid out in order for folks to say how they would react in THAT exact situation.
    That's true, and it is why I framed the question as a "factors" type thing; what would you look for to make you act one way or another, what would be your trigger to action etc. etc.


    I can think of a few things which would make it even more tricky:
    Say the guy is yelling in a foreign language, and/or looks Arabic ( hate to be un PC, but this would factor, at least unconsciously into my decision process)

    What if there is another guy(s) in the car?

    Say you are parked at the Stop and Rob, see a guy jump out his car, leavening the engine running, and his wife and kid in the back seat. Then a couple of gang-bangers jump in and start to drive off...


    I know these thought games are impossible to give definite answers to, but I think they are useful in that they help condition the brain to think in 'tactical' terms, so that hopefully you will not freeze if the balloon ever goes up.
    /***********
    Phill
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    "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate"
    William of Ockham (ca. 1285-1349)

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    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Question Who is who???

    In any intervention, unless one is aquainted with at least one of the parties involved, the problem faced by the citizen is this:

    Who is who? Not like the ball park where you can purchase a program, so you can tell the players by their numbers.

    Did you see the start of the event? Are you sure???

    Unless I see weapons and a child, I will be a witness--probably.

    Too many varibles.

    Go to www.stoppingpower.net and look at the editorals. An excellent one by Evan Marshall that I have used (with authors permission) in some classes.

    The only thinking that has changed is problems involving terrorist.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  8. #7
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    KC - I am assuming this very interesting piece is what you mainly referred to?

    http://www.stoppingpower.net/editori...tervention.asp
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array KC135's Avatar
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    Talking I am lazy!!

    Yep I sure am...and yes that is the correct item.

    I was just too lazy to do the whole thing. :) Thanks.

    http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...?TOPIC_ID=8924

    Look at this one.
    Keep the shotgun handy!!

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    I seem to recall a recent report of a situation where the police intervened in a reported abduction of a woman, only to discover that it had taken "weeks" for the woman to setup her fantasy abduction, and the police had screwed it up.

    Think about the two- or three-year old, fighting, kicking and screaming because he doesn't want to be removed from the play pen at the McDonalds or the mall.

    I think I'd be inclined to be a good witness and report suspicious behavior, but not intervene unless I had clear and convincing evidence that someone's life was in imminent danger, and even then, if it were a stranger, I think I would still be circumspect.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

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    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    1. Sounds like she is the one that screwed up. You don't think they shoot movies without notifying why should she be any different.
    2. Ah yes the terrible 2's that lasted through the 5's he's 18 now and still wines like a 2 year old when asked to do chores.
    3. Amen cells and 911 wonderful things beat the heck out of road range and other possible embarrassing moments.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  12. #11
    Member Array LPguy's Avatar
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    I was at a local fair last year and witnessed an altercation between an older man and a young woman, the who is who factor kicked in as I weighed my options. My wife blurted out "you're the black belt GO!"

    I decided to turn my back to the scene and ushered my family out of harms way to wait it out. Turns out the guy was defending his wife from the younger woman who was looking to pick a fight with her over something stupid.

    I'm glad I waited it out.....

    Mike

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