Too fat to be a hero.

This is a discussion on Too fat to be a hero. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Obviously, not being there myself its hard to tell you whether you did the right thing or not. However, I am wondering if the victim ...

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Thread: Too fat to be a hero.

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array USPnTX's Avatar
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    Obviously, not being there myself its hard to tell you whether you did the right thing or not. However, I am wondering if the victim would have given chase if you had not. If she would have chased the thief no matter what, you probably saved her life or at the very least kept her from being beaten. If she was following you into the melee, then your actions could have gotten her hurt. Sprinting into a dark alley at night who knows who or what was in that alley.

    With that said you get the good citizen award for helping out. I'm just glad it wasn't the Darwin award for either of you!
    "Do not fear those who disagree with you; fear those that do and are too cowardly to admit it" - Napoleon

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    I SAY YOU DID GOOD!! Yeah you put yerself in risk but you already did that driving to the store. Life is about calculated risk,. I 100% agree with CCWINNC. You can "live on the porch" all yer life but coming off the porch and acting is what makes you prove that life has value. 'For Me and Mine' is the theory but I will not stand by and let bad things happen to good people if I have the chance to right a wrong reasonably safely. Dangerous...maybe, foolish, judge not, but it was the RIGHT thing to do.
    WE must live by our morals and principals. I am aware of litigation issues but I do not let it control me.
    This is my opinion..it may not and does not have to be yours.
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    Lets keep it that way.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array rabywk's Avatar
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    Dangerous, YES! I would have probably done the same thing and I would hope that someone would do the same for my wife.

    Thank you sir!!!!!! For those who do not agree, so be it. I don't think you were trying to be a cop, just a good citizen. I think this is why our country is turning the way it is, there are too many people out there that think only of themselves.

    When I was a volunteer EMT/Firefighter, I put my life on the line a lot. It wasn't my job, I was a volunteer. I felt that it was part of my duty to give back to the public and a little way for me to do good in this world.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanwins View Post
    I needed to go to Best Buy tonight to pick up a new monitor, keyboard and mouse so I could make a laptop with a dead monitor useful again (damn you VAIO). Anyways, I made my purchases and headed for my car with my arms full.

    I try to stay aware of my situation when I am in public spaces at night, and especially when I'm weighed down with $300 in electronics. As I am making my way to my car I see three young men dressed kinda thuggish approaching the store walking slowly from a few parking aisles down and as I'm looking they change direction away from the store and towards me. I thought it was unusual behavior, as most people in parking lots are usually go from store to car or vice versa, and it set a little warning bell jingling.

    I'm still 20 ft or so from my vehicle and my CCW is with me but I have an arm full of monitor in that hand.
    If they had decided to come after you as you suspected initially, remember that throwing a computer monitor at one of them will make a great distraction and likely interrupt at least one of the attacker's OODA loop.

    As for pursuing a purse snatcher...

    No. Sorry. Not for me.

    While I think you are a great guy for doing it, that isn't something I'd have done.

    Once the initial snatch was done, the victim wasn't in any immediate danger anymore, and as such, I'm not risking my health, life or freedom for a $300 purse containing tissues, 2 pairs of red lipstick (I'm sorry...one is "Cherry" and the other is "Sunset"...), a wallet containing pictures of her cat, an ATM card, drivers license and an over-drawn mastercard.

    She can get a new handbag (Which I'm sure she wanted to anyway...) take more cat photos, buy more lipstick, cancel her credit cards and get a new license.

    She can't buy you new health if you run round a corner chasing the purse snatcher and run into a sharpened screwdriver.

    She probably isn't going to pay for your funeral if you die.

    I'm dam sure she isn't going to pay the legal bills if you did catch the guys and they had the bad manners to attempt to get away from you and you had to use force to retrieve the property leaving one or more of them dead or injured.

    What is more important, helping a stranger or making sure you are able to take care of you primary obligations in life: Your Family.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array SilenceDoGood's Avatar
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    Your moral compass is right on track. That in fact is the thing you *should* do, BUT in "today's society" you just can't... to many variables. He takes a corner quicker than you and is waiting with a knife and you roll around right into a shank... not good, I've seen it happen. A huffing and puffing with blood filling your lungs... well it's nasty. I agree that you should stay with the victim and act as a witness when LEO decides they can get there. Life>purse.
    "A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington

  7. #21
    Member Array CCWINNC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If they had decided to come after you as you suspected initially, remember that throwing a computer monitor at one of them will make a great distraction and likely interrupt at least one of the attacker's OODA loop.

    As for pursuing a purse snatcher...

    No. Sorry. Not for me.

    While I think you are a great guy for doing it, that isn't something I'd have done.

    Once the initial snatch was done, the victim wasn't in any immediate danger anymore, and as such, I'm not risking my health, life or freedom for a $300 purse containing tissues, 2 pairs of red lipstick (I'm sorry...one is "Cherry" and the other is "Sunset"...), a wallet containing pictures of her cat, an ATM card, drivers license and an over-drawn mastercard.

    She can get a new handbag (Which I'm sure she wanted to anyway...) take more cat photos, buy more lipstick, cancel her credit cards and get a new license.

    She can't buy you new health if you run round a corner chasing the purse snatcher and run into a sharpened screwdriver.

    She probably isn't going to pay for your funeral if you die.

    I'm dam sure she isn't going to pay the legal bills if you did catch the guys and they had the bad manners to attempt to get away from you and you had to use force to retrieve the property leaving one or more of them dead or injured.

    What is more important, helping a stranger or making sure you are able to take care of you primary obligations in life: Your Family.


    Or her insulin shots or inhaler which she would need after and incident like this. Folks there is no I in team, but if you see a me STAY HOME.
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array rabywk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    What is more important, helping a stranger or making sure you are able to take care of you primary obligations in life: Your Family.
    What if our LEOs, fireman, EMTs, and first responders decided to think this way also? It is their job? Well yes, but by choice, no one told them that your job is going to be X. They made a choice to help people. Just because you chose not to become one of these professions, it does not let you off the hook for being a good human being.
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  10. #24
    Member Array CCWINNC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabywk View Post
    What if our LEOs, fireman, EMTs, and first responders decided to think this way also? It is their job? Well yes, but by choice, no one told them that your job is going to be X. They made a choice to help people. Just because you chose not to become one of these professions, it does not let you off the hook for being a good human being.
    +1 for Rabywk,Skippythenurse,Rob72,Friesepferd, Knpjdad.Sololucky..and those that believe the following.

    “All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men/women to do nothing.” - Edmund Burke
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  11. #25
    Member Array Henry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankshop1000 View Post
    What if... you would have caught up with the BG and he turned quickly at you with a cell phone in hand? You mistook it for a weapon and the adrenelin caused you to fire? You are officially in a BIGGGGGGGGGG pickle.Your CCW allows you to protect yourself, not to be a cop.
    If the BG turns around with something in the BG's hand pointed at him, then he would have been defending himself. He just needs to make sure that his lawyer can articulate that fear for his own life very well.
    Last edited by Henry; November 13th, 2007 at 12:53 PM. Reason: clarifying my post, re: the "him"s.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabywk View Post
    What if our LEOs, fireman, EMTs, and first responders decided to think this way also? It is their job? Well yes, but by choice, no one told them that your job is going to be X. They made a choice to help people. Just because you chose not to become one of these professions, it does not let you off the hook for being a good human being.
    You are allowed to use force to defend yourself or another person from great bodily harm or the threat thereof.

    If the person is being assaulted, or they are fighting over the purse, its one thing. If you intervene, you are intervening to assist the victim of a robbery.

    Robbery is classified as a violent crime, so the use of force to resist it is one thing.

    Seeing a robbery take place and contemporaneously intervening with the use of force, even deadly force, is probably going to be justified as you are reacting to the force or threat of force used, not the protection or recovery of property.

    When the guy gets the purse and is running away, the robbery is over. The threat is over. Whatever happened, happened.

    Pursuing him now involves the recovery of property - something for which the use of force rules change. You are not allowed to use deadly force to recover property in most jurisdictions.

    Unless you have just witnessed actions that would lead a reasonable person to assume that a continuing, imminent threat to another person or the public is still present, such as a murder or an excessively violent attack, you are not responding to a robbery anymore by pursuing the guy with the purse.

    You have become a super-hero known as "repo-man".

    In my opinion you are better served by rendering aid to the victim and informing the police than risking your health, life or freedom to recover a purse that isn't even your.

    Why is everyone so hot to intervene in a situation where they can get injured or die over someone else's property?

    I know, the scumbag who committed the crime should be boiled, skinned alive and then tarred and feathered, then impaled on a dull stake...Bad people win when good people do nothing...

    But when good people don't act properly, they loose big too.

    They get hurt. They die.

    They end up facing a prosecutor who believes they over reacted and should face charges recklessness, should loose their permit to carry a weapon and face indictments for pleasant things like murder, assault, unlawful restraint and other things like that.

    Even if you are justified, as was the case in the Baskin Robins shooting in Lynhaven, VA http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.a...9-28-0253.html where a clerk shot and killed an armed robber who not only took the money in the store but "... ordered Fielding, another Baskin-Robbins employee and the lone customer to go to the back of the store...." (A classic prelude to being executed) you can still face a DA who believes your actions are unjustified - "One volley of shots appears to have been arguably reasonable," Herring said. "And from what I've seen, the other volley of shots does not."

    This is Virginia.

    Not NJ. Not CA. Not IL.

    Still want to play the sheep dog and go after that purse?

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rabywk View Post
    What if our LEOs, fireman, EMTs, and first responders decided to think this way also? It is their job? Well yes, but by choice, no one told them that your job is going to be X. They made a choice to help people. Just because you chose not to become one of these professions, it does not let you off the hook for being a good human being.
    And also be aware that "those people" make choices as well. I have been on more than one call where Mongo the Ahole was "too combative" to treat, vs. the LE or victim. Or Mongo had a lower AVPU, indicating lower triage status. Or... Life can be rough, unless Mongo is the only one hurt, and even then, he better be nice to the nice medics.

    I am a firm believer in "do unto others as you would have done unto you", as we all make choices, every day. If you "yearn" to be a hero, you'll probably get hurt. If you have the interventionist mindset, but lack a well considered plan, you'll get hurt.

    If you do what you know to be right, without equivocation- that's the measure. I can do it or not without qualms, but I also realize that each time other people only see other people walking by, it increases the liklihood of me or mine suffering because of the social acclimation.

    Glean information from your experiences, and refine your plans.

    I'm not recommending anything to anyone (other than learning), just be willing to assess your choices impersonally. Everything is a cost/benefit ratio- we have to decided how to balance our scales individually and communally.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array rabywk's Avatar
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    I understand this site is about CCW and the person giving chase had a CCW in his possession. Now not every situation is going to result in use of lethal force. I am not stupid and I don't want to try to fight 3 people over a purse, but to pursue them and find where they duck into to hide or what car they got into to get away. This is the kind of info that will really help out.

    I am not saying tackle the perps and beat the crap out of them. I am saying be a little more helpful then saying "I saw 3 guys, a white one between 5'10" and 6' weighing 200lbs to 250lbs, wearing black jeans and a white shirt." Fill in the other two....

    These types of descriptions are not very useful, plus by the time the police get there, they are usually long gone.

    Let's take the perps & guns out of the picture. If you came to an accident scene where the car was burning and a woman was trapped inside yelling for help, but you hear the sirens of the fire department coming. Would you just stand there or take a risk?

    Life is a risk. The most dangerous thing I do, I do on a daily basis and that is drive my car. I just have to decide what is right for me and what will allow ME to sleep at night.

    If I were killed helping someone my family would know I died trying to make a difference. If I die in a auto accident, it is a shame. I hope I am raising my children with the same morals that I was raised with.

    Lawsuits happen. You can't live your life trying to avoid them. If you really felt that way you would live your life locked up in your apartment and never answer the door. You wouldn't own a house because that is too much of a liability.

    The comments made in my previous posts were how I live my life and I can't expect anyone to live by the rules I live my life by. Now with that being said, I think our society has become what it is now because people don't live by these types of rules anymore. Too many people are worried about themselves and being sued then doing the right thing.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry View Post
    If the BG turns around with something in the BG's hand pointed at him, then he would have been defending himself. He just needs to make sure that his lawyer can articulate that fear for his own life very well.
    Yeah...

    Minor problem in that...

    The initial aggressor can himself claim self defense (and the initial defender can become the unjustified aggressor) when the initial aggressor has "... in good faith had first withdrawn from the combat at such a time and in such a manner as to have clearly apprised his adversary that he in good faith was desisting, or intended to desist, from further aggressive action." State v. Craig, 82 Wn.2d 777, 783, 514 P.2d 151 (1973)

    That's pretty much the template for laws related to self defense in all states.

    If someone is running away, its very risky, tactically & legally speaking, to purse them unless you are obligated or allowed by law to pursue and apprehend them.

    You can't put yourself in a position where you have to use force, use that force, and then claim you were justified unless you are operating under an exemption like defense of another...but here that doesn't fit if he is pursuing the robber as he leaves with the stolen property.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Justification or validation of inaction would not seem to require such defense. Granted, it is exceedingly risky to take any action on the part of another. For personal health and financial well-being, intervention is not in any way recommended, nor indeed are there consequences one way or another for the bystander.

    According to some forgotten Segwick County statute, EMS personnel were not to attempt a water rescue without swim gear (fins, mask, lifejacket) in the absence of Fire's Water Rescue Unit. Of course, we all wore swimtrunks under our uniforms and carried swim gear in the truck along with the other 4000 pounds of gear. And no one ever went in the water.

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