Hostage situation with a twist
This is a discussion on Hostage situation with a twist within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I created an image for the upcoming issue of S.W.A.T. for an article on hostage resolution. I had mrshonts hold me at knifepoint while I ...
July 14th, 2005 06:12 PM
Hostage situation with a twist
I created an image for the upcoming issue of S.W.A.T. for an article on hostage resolution. I had mrshonts hold me at knifepoint while I held the digicam... cheap and easy shot, and I trust mrshonts to not gouge a hole in my dainty neck. (I don't have a training knife that isn't obviously rubber.)
Hey, that looks like a Benchmade Mini-Stryker!
Who would've thought a thug could have such good taste?
We've already run through the scenario where it was asked if we would or would not take the shot at an aggressor who has taken a hostage, so I'll try to come up with something new. I don't think this one's been discussed yet.
Since we're here on Combat Carry, I assume we do our best to have good situational awareness. So please let's not waste bandwidth with "well, I'll never get myself into that situation, so it's moot to me."
We don't have eyes on the backs of our heads, so at some point there's going to be somebody standing in our blind spot, especially if we're in public, like in a large crowd, elevator or whatnot, and it gets harder and harder to maintain personal space.
So 6' 250 pound Whacko Nutjob (not describing you, mrshonts) hears little voices telling him that "it's time" because aliens are coming to earth and he's been given a "sign."
You're minding your own business, wading through the crowd of people when all of a sudden, this big paw comes up from behind you, jerks you back towards the large body it belongs to, covers your mouth and now you've got the cold steel of a knife tip at your throat. Whacko Nutjob is screaming about "signs" and everyone around is screaming and either running away or gawking. You're not sure if anyone is dialing 911.
What do you do? Do you take the guy on with a kung-fu move, grabbing for the blade, disarming him and sending his body flying through the air, or do you wait for the cops to come and handle the situation? Do you reach for your own weapon? If he's holding a gun instead of a knife, how does your reaction in this scenario change?
Last edited by Betty; July 18th, 2005 at 10:29 PM.
Reason: re-upload picture
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
July 14th, 2005 06:41 PM
There actually are some relatively simple combatives almost anyone can learn that would help in this situation.
One thing I've been trained to do is to more or less make a snap rotation on one heel. Let me try to explain this somewhat.
See normally when we turn around our inclination is to rotate ourselves in place around an axis running down our centerline. The problem with this is that you're still in the grasp of your attacker even if you do manage to turn around and face him.
Instead, what you do is rotate around using your foot as the point of rotation, so that you are facing him, but your centerline is not directly in his grasp. I don't know a good way to really explain it in text.
When you do so, you use the hand that's on the same side as the foot you rotated on to block, and if need be you can knock your attacker's limb or limbs aside. This is a gross oversimplification, but I'm not a combatives expert and don't pretend to be an instructor.
From there it's basically a contact situation. Hope you read some of Gabe Suarez's stuff addressing this situation. I also think you could use a little footwork to gain just a hair of space if you were to reteat laterally.
When you're actually in a grasp, if it's deperate enough, I have seen some guys who are actually good at this stuff basically sidestep the opponent's grasp and drive an elbow into his gut or groin. I don't think I would try that but I'm not a martial artist either. If I had more skill I could probably get away with it. I've even had demonstrated on me a technique where the instructor swept my leg out from under me and sent me sprawling to the ground.
A way to deal with it which anyone could try is to simply let it all go and go limp. This is surprisingly effective, and if you get in a stand off situation where an armed person is trying to get a shot, your sudden drop could provide that opportunity. Anyone who's tried to pick up a person who can't move under their own power understands just how hard it is to hold up, lift, or restrain dead weight.
I personally have actually thought about this situation. It is not unfeasible that with one free hand you could retrieve a knife or a snubnose revolver. Get that knife into play and slice the guy's arm up real good, or shoot him point blank in the hip or pelvis. Have someone grab you sometime. It's not as hard as you think.
Finally, I would suggest grabbing an ear lobe and jerking real real hard. You'll tear if off quite handedly and it hurts like hell. A desperate tactic to be sure.
July 14th, 2005 11:09 PM
Initially, going limp sounded like a viable thing, but the more that I looked at the picture, the more I don't think I would do that. Going limp would, of course, send your body downward, even if the BG were to make an attempt to hold you up. You might slit your own throat with the knife he is holding tightly before he even registered what was going on. If you could get to your knife, I would slide it between my shoulder and his wrist and applying as much force as I could muster try to cut it off. If you could get those ligaments cut, I don't believe he could generate enough force to hold onto the knife and cut you. I expect it would shut those voices in his head off real quick....
Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.
July 14th, 2005 11:22 PM
Betty ~ Your Photo
That is a dire situation to be in.
I would just keep in mind that it is better to take the deepest of knife cuts nearly anywhere else but across the jugular/throat.
Before I would perform any action I would try to (at least) get my arm or hand between that blade & my throat.
I'll choose any surgically repairable knife injury as a realistic alternative to a slit throat any day.
Good Thread Betty.
July 14th, 2005 11:29 PM
Anything you do in this situation is going to be a gamble. I mean honestly, there's not a "good" answer that I can think of personally. I'd only try the limp thing if there was a distraction or someone else pointing a gun at the guy looking for a shot.
Yeah he might cut you, but he might not either.
The other thing is this assailant isn't much bigger than I am. Unless he's some kind of heavy duty bodybuilder his power advantage over me isn't going to be much.
July 15th, 2005 12:03 AM
VIP Member (Retired Staff)
A tricky one indeed. From pic I would anticipate a counter clockwise twist/rotation with move to my right and left elbow firmly into his gut - an attempt (that's all it would be) to get clear of the blade.
The ensuing few milli seconds would be critical as the BG could rapidly change his knife application and still do mega damage but - with luck my neck just might be clear. Then I would hope to do a drop and roll to gain even marginal distance.
After that - who knows - if armed I just might (very ''might'') be able to draw and fire. But this sorta stuff happens quick - blink of an eye stuff!!
Sure as heck tho - in such a situation probably one has to act - somehow and not just stay put at that degree of risk. Better to die fighting - and all that .........
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member. "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."http://www.rkba-2a.com/
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
July 15th, 2005 10:47 AM
Your options would be pretty limited at this point....
Hopefully, a CCW holder with lots of practice and a steady hand would be in the immediate crowd No matter what happens, it ain't gonna be pretty.
This picture looks just like one of the hostage shoot/no shoot targets that are available at the range where I shoot...I've never tried one, but I think I will today.
"I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York
"They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper
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