This JUST happened to my wife... dog attack and stupid LEO - Page 3

This JUST happened to my wife... dog attack and stupid LEO

This is a discussion on This JUST happened to my wife... dog attack and stupid LEO within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by chiboxer While agree, in theory, that the officer shouldn't give out incorrect legal information, where do people get off thinking a complaint ...

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Thread: This JUST happened to my wife... dog attack and stupid LEO

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiboxer View Post
    While agree, in theory, that the officer shouldn't give out incorrect legal information, where do people get off thinking a complaint to Internal Affairs for a mistake is appropriate? First of all, being mistaken is no rule violation on any department I've ever been associated with.

    I would suggest reading over the incident again.
    This has nothing to do with the officer being 'mistaken'.
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    After thinking about this situation, I'd schedule a appointment with the officer's supervisor to resolve the problem prior to going further with it.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Array sui-juris's Avatar
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    Would asking to talk to his/her supervisor be possible? Otherwise, this is why dep'ts have a formal citizen complaint process (most anyway).

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiboxer View Post
    While agree, in theory, that the officer shouldn't give out incorrect legal information, where do people get off thinking a complaint to Internal Affairs for a mistake is appropriate? First of all, being mistaken is no rule violation on any department I've ever been associated with. Secondly, a chat with the officer's CO would probably clear up 99% of any problems. Thirdly, do CCW holders really want to start making IA complaints, every time they disagree with the police? To me, that doesn't seem like a great way to maintain LE support for CCW.
    WHAT LE support for CCW?

    We may have police officers on this forum come out in (obvious) support of CCW here... but look for any vocal public support for it by police officers--particularly by higher-ups--and you will be looking in vain. The leadership of all the major law enforcement fraternities and associations across the U.S. have nothing positive to say about "civilians attempting to do the job of the police". They keep parrotting the idiot party line about how we should just dutifully call 911 and beg for our lives while they attempt to send a patrol car to us.

    I just don't see any material "support" from LE like you are referring to. If we had it, we could worry about losing it. As it stands, we don't have it so what's to worry about losing it?

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    WHAT LE support for CCW?

    We may have police officers on this forum come out in (obvious) support of CCW here... but look for any vocal public support for it by police officers--particularly by higher-ups--and you will be looking in vain. The leadership of all the major law enforcement fraternities and associations across the U.S. have nothing positive to say about "civilians attempting to do the job of the police". They keep parrotting the idiot party line about how we should just dutifully call 911 and beg for our lives while they attempt to send a patrol car to us.

    I just don't see any material "support" from LE like you are referring to. If we had it, we could worry about losing it. As it stands, we don't have it so what's to worry about losing it?
    I am implied to agree here to a point.

    It all comes down to politics and job security. I am sure there is a large number of LEOs that support the CC laws, but the dare not say so publicly, nor can they take an official pro stance. The top of the political food chain will slap them right into the unemployment line for jeopardizing their voting constituent for placing that particular chief or captain in office.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; December 8th, 2007 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Deleted a language workaround

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    WHAT LE support for CCW?

    We may have police officers on this forum come out in (obvious) support of CCW here... but look for any vocal public support for it by police officers--particularly by higher-ups--and you will be looking in vain. The leadership of all the major law enforcement fraternities and associations across the U.S. have nothing positive to say about "civilians attempting to do the job of the police". They keep parrotting the idiot party line about how we should just dutifully call 911 and beg for our lives while they attempt to send a patrol car to us.

    I just don't see any material "support" from LE like you are referring to. If we had it, we could worry about losing it. As it stands, we don't have it so what's to worry about losing it?

    The impression I get is that LEO's in general supprt concealed carry by the public and are even appreciative of it. The problem that I see is that a majority of the police chiefs, spokesmen, etc., voice their opposition to the public having concealed carry because they are controlled more by the politicians. Who do you think hires and can fire those police chiefs?
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

    "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder." -Michael Savage

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  7. #37
    Member Array micpl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiboxer View Post
    While agree, in theory, that the officer shouldn't give out incorrect legal information, where do people get off thinking a complaint to Internal Affairs for a mistake is appropriate?
    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    I would suggest reading over the incident again.
    This has nothing to do with the officer being 'mistaken'.
    I think it comes down to what the LEO's intent was... 1) is he ignorant of the law and sincerely thinks he's doing her a favor by 'educating' her about his understanding of it or 2) does he have contempt for armed citizens and is abusing his position to harass and intimidate her?

    In the first case the LEO should get some remedial training. In the second case he should not be a LEO. I wasn't there and can't be sure which is the case, but I find it hard to believe that he is so stupid as to believe what he is alleged to have said. If the person who was there believes she was being deliberately lied to I hope she will press the issue hard, both to protect herself from future repercussions and to make a point for all of us.

    With respect chiboxer, I think you may be trying a little too hard to see his side of it. I'm sure you wouldn't abuse your badge to try to impose your political views on a law abiding citizen. You should be offended by possibility that this guy is doing so, and thereby helping turn law abiding citizens against their police. If his intent was harmless, let an investigation conclude that and let it be a learning experience for him about the rights of those he serves.

  8. #38
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    ..and here I thought LEOs could not dispense LEGAL advice
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Just because an officer was wrong in his knowledge of the law doesn't mean he is stupid. Police officers are human. They make mistakes just like you and I do.
    What's that famous phrase LEO's and judges always seem to use?

    Oh yeah, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse!"

    I would say that is especially true when it pertains to LEO's.

    JMHO!
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  10. #40
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    I agree that Internal Affairs is not the appropriate department in this case for the complaint, I do feel someone in the command staff should hear your complaint.

    Ordinarily I would just let the incident slide and go on with life, however in this case, I feel the report the officer took/made is possibly flavored with the officers skew on how your wife acted inappropriately.

    If he's cavalierly tossing out terms like brandishing when she clearly wasn't... informing her of breaking the law by carrying in the police station when it wasn't... I can only imagine how his "official" report reads.

    Now for some things, I'd say it's trivial and to leave it alone. But when it comes to guns, ccw, and being a responsible citizen, having a derogatory "official report" basically stating an inappropriate use of a firearm occurred is not a good thing to have in your file.

    Someday down the road, it may surface again at the most inopportune time. Like following a justifiable shooting should one happen someday. That one, long forgotten report, flavored by the officers obvious bias could surface during the investigation of the shooting when they are trying to determine if they should pursue charges or not.

    I would pursue this with higher ranking command staff in the police department to not only make a complaint, but to also make sure the "official" report contains the truth, and nothing but the truth.

    Whether they do anything or not to reprimand the officer would not be my chief concern. My only concern would be to ensure the report was objective and factual and I would not be satisfied until it is corrected.

    I just don't believe Internal Affairs is the appropriate avenue to go with this sort of complaint. But certainly someone with higher rank than sergeant.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #41
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    paramedic70002, please don't start a thread like this and leave us hanging.... Be sure and post back here with the results of your follow-up.

    It's important for us to know what kind of response you got, how the "report" the officer took looked and any corrective action that was done to ensure your wife wasn't painted in a bad light.

    This is the type of stuff that could effect us all in one way or another under similar circumstances!

    Thanks!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array Juggernaut's Avatar
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    It's not the first time the 5-0 in VA has gotten carry laws "mixed up", there was a thread about this a few months ago:
    http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/mcpd.html

    I don't disrespect LEO ipso facto, but my direct experience with them has led me to reevaluate how I give out respect to LEO.

    To the OP: Follow up with a written, notarized copied, signature confirmation letter to the precinct commander with the actions, dates, times, of everybody involved and courses of action you would like pursued and demand an answer in writing within a week of what will be their course of action. Write a follow-up notarized copied, signature confirmation letter in a week if you don't get a response. Beauracracies love paperwork, it may take a little legwork on your part, but you've got to CYA.. I don't disrespect LEO ipso facto, but my direct experience with them has led me to reevaluate how I give out respect to LEO. Follow up with a written, notarized copied, signature confirmation letter to the precinct leader with the actions, dates, times, of everybody involved and courses of action you would like pursued and demand an answer in writing what will be their course of action. Write a follow-up notarized copied, signature confirmation letter in a week or two. Beauracracies love paperwork, it may take a little legwork on your part, but you've got to CYA. My second-hand experience with what family members have gone through at the county level supports that advice.
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  13. #43
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    OK, OK,

    I decided to write a letter instead of calling the Chief. It should go in the mail when I get off work tomorrow. No problem with bureaucracy, the whole dept is 30 sworn and 10 civilian. I think I will go back to the letter and mention cleaning up the report.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  14. #44
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    Please let us know if you receive any feedback from the chief's office. I am sure we all would be very curious as to the reply.

  15. #45
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    That's an interesting point made there. Perhaps that is the case. You've gotta understand though, that having grown up in a police family and experiencing first hand the media bias and public dislike of us, I rather reflexively defend my profession. Most people don't like us, except when they really need us then we're a necessary evil. (See Lt. Col. David Grossman's article the Wolf, Sheep, and Sheepdog) The other posters are correct, most rank and file coppers do support CCW (remember we have wives that need to protect themselves too), however our administrations do not. You are also correct in surmising that LE officials are put into place by politicians and usually have to tow a company line.

    Quote Originally Posted by micpl View Post
    I think it comes down to what the LEO's intent was... 1) is he ignorant of the law and sincerely thinks he's doing her a favor by 'educating' her about his understanding of it or 2) does he have contempt for armed citizens and is abusing his position to harass and intimidate her?

    In the first case the LEO should get some remedial training. In the second case he should not be a LEO. I wasn't there and can't be sure which is the case, but I find it hard to believe that he is so stupid as to believe what he is alleged to have said. If the person who was there believes she was being deliberately lied to I hope she will press the issue hard, both to protect herself from future repercussions and to make a point for all of us.

    With respect chiboxer, I think you may be trying a little too hard to see his side of it. I'm sure you wouldn't abuse your badge to try to impose your political views on a law abiding citizen. You should be offended by possibility that this guy is doing so, and thereby helping turn law abiding citizens against their police. If his intent was harmless, let an investigation conclude that and let it be a learning experience for him about the rights of those he serves.
    Si vis pacem, parabellum

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