December 11th, 2007 06:58 PM
At what distance would you engage a shooter?
I've been thinking about the Colorado church shooting and wondering how close I'd need to be before I would have engaged the shooter in that situation. I haven't seen those details yet but most of my practice has been inside 20 yds. In that chaotic situation at what distance would you feel confident taking a shot?
December 11th, 2007 07:01 PM
Thats a loaded question that cant have one answer. It depends on a lot of things, mainly how far away the BG is engaging me.
December 11th, 2007 07:19 PM
Number of possible issues involved here but to simplify max for farthest extremes of my weapons..
About 80-100 yds for SW629 44 mag and prob about 35-40 yds for the KT P3AT.
December 11th, 2007 07:33 PM
As SIXTO said....many things will be factors............
- The firearm you are carrying. If a belly gun, accuracy at distance is compromised. If 'full sized' (like 5" 1911), range can be further. (I do own & have carried belly guns, usually as a back up to a full sized firearm for this reason.)
- Is your target moving? If stationary, shot will be easier & a greater distance shot could be successful.
-Are you moving? Shooting while on the move is hard, even with practice & training.
-Are you shooting from a rest/support or off hand?
-Environment? What's the venue? Where will your round go WHEN you miss?
-Are there a lot of people around?
-If great distance is involved...are you justified in shooting?
This is just a few......
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." -Jeff Cooper
December 11th, 2007 07:57 PM
In this situation it's a large church with thousands of people in the building and parking lot. The woman heard the shots drew her weapon and moved toward the source as opposed to the BG specifically coming after her. She also knew there had been a shooting earlier.
December 11th, 2007 08:09 PM
That, and the setting. If the BG is solo and no hostages or/GG (good guys) are in the immediate proximity, and BG is presenting me with a full silhouette----30 yds.
Originally Posted by SIXTO
December 11th, 2007 09:12 PM
To me the answer is simple.
Am in imminent danger right now this instant the fan is spinning at max rpm and somebody just pulled the release on the poop chute?
If so then that is Jeopardy
Is the shooter able to shoot me, regardles off his weaponry being a 2" revolver or an SKS, from how ever close or far he might be to me?
If so then that is Ability.
Does the shooter show imminent purposefulness in wanting to harm me, mine, and/or those within my immediate surroundings?
If so then that is Means
If any one of these are not met then there is no J.A.M. and thus no lawfullness nor reasonableness and with that no unholstering/deployment of tools be it firearm, knife, or whatever.
As to taking a shot at distances outside say 21'.
I wouldn't bet on tight groups under combat duress with a short barreled revolver or as in my case a 3.5" 1911 in hand.
But doing the same with a 4.25" or 5" fullsize pistol or a shotgun or even better a rifle, then effective first and second shot range capability increases greatly for the average shooter.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
December 11th, 2007 10:08 PM
over 20 feet and I would be worried about picking off GG's. This is a very trickey situation because a church usually has entrences and exits in the back. Assume the BG comes in these doors guns-a-blazn'. That means you would have to get him lined up down the isle[ (PUES HERE) ISLE (PUES HERE) ]<--- a front view where I and E of isle are the doors int he back of the chruch. Shooting across would break rule 3. Its always situational in the Tactical Scenarios, but for entertaining the idea 20 feet is my max comfort level with a compact handgun with people near.
"A government is like fire, a handy servant, but a dangerous master." -- George Washington
December 11th, 2007 10:20 PM
depends on the gun
depends on where you are, if u can get closer
depends on how good you are
depends on if there are other ppl right around
... depends on a lot
December 11th, 2007 10:28 PM
No more then 21 feet, if I feel a threat to my life or families lives i will engage
Till the threat is stopped.
December 11th, 2007 10:41 PM
I'll do whatever it takes, regardless of distance. if something like that happens, you gotta dance with who brung ya, as the wise man once said. that being said, I routinely practice at distances beyond 15 yards for this very reason, and almost without exception, carry full-size pistols. I know with my Champion I can hit small paint cans at 50 yards consistently from a conventional draw.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
December 11th, 2007 10:56 PM
I carry a Taurus PT-145; it has a very short barrel. And I am not about to join the Olympic shooting team any time soon. In a controlled environment without stress I can maintain a 6 inch group at 30 feet.
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December 11th, 2007 11:11 PM
If I can get the guy to put a red dot on his upper torso and stand still for 3 seconds or so, I can get it within 4" of the red dot from about 27 yards. That's the limit of the indoor range I use...
Even though it is a G23c....
Last edited by GBS; December 11th, 2007 at 11:16 PM.
Reason: Metric conversion...
December 12th, 2007 09:23 AM
Realistically I say 25 yards. I am confident that within that range I will be able to place nearly every shot from my XD45 service (4" barrel) in the shooter. And I do practice moving and shooting. I would strongly suggest everyone practice, at least on occasion, that way. If you find yourself in a shooting situation it going to be very fluid, very fast and nothing like standing shooting at a paper target.
Remember, when things happen you will revert to the way you have trained yourself. If you only practice standing still, that is probably how you will engage the BG. This may well be why the other two security folks in Colorado Springs failed to engage. They had never practice for the scenario they found themselves in.
December 12th, 2007 09:41 AM
Unless you practice regularly at distance with the same handgun youíre carrying, engaging the BG could result in you going to jail for the rest of your life for accidentally killing a bystander.
While I donít know about you, I am no longer an LEO so I have no free legal representation, and just having an attorney represent me in questioning could cost $3500 or more. Further if I accidentally shot a bystanders, attorney fees could go upward to $50,000 or more.
Long story short, I would only engage the BG if I had a clear shot, at close range, with NO background bystanders, or he was shooting at my family and I, thus leaving me no choice.
Another thing you should consider:
Since the Church had hired armed security, the security guard may think your part of the threat, and shoot you should you draw your handgun.
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