This is a discussion on Off Duty Cop: Foolish? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Me either. If I told him to drop it and he didnt...though....the fights on....
Me either. If I told him to drop it and he didnt...though....the fights on.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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I might have done nothing until I was noticed...leave with the money, i do not care, but take notice of me and come towards me...
I'll be writing a book called..."Bullets for the Bad Guy!"
Stay armed...use common sense, you're not a cop...stay safe!
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I noticed some poor tactics by the officer but can't hammer him too hard because he did interrupt and prevented an armed robbery. He was an officer and had the authority to do so, but not necessarily the obligation to do so.
I don't know if the officer had handcuff with him or not, but attempting an arrest when off duty when you don't have any handcuffs would be the first tactical error.
As you can see... the officer had his pistol in hand as he was attempting to restrain/subdue the suspect and was basically waiving his pistol enviting a "gun grab!" Also where the officer had his gun in relationship to the suspect, it would have been a fairly easy disarming!
The great thing about surveillence videos are that they provide an opportunity to review tactics and dissect the situation to look for ways of improvement.
I would think if the officer did not have a set of handcuffs, a safer course of action would have been to "prone him out" on the floor behind the counter, or where ever he could and just hold him at gunpoint until on duty personnel could arrive.
Obviously when you are off duty without your usual "tools of the trade" ie, cuffs, OC spray, baton, or whatever else you use, attempting an arrest can turn something like this into a case where you need to shoot someone, where otherwise, you may have other tools to use and other alternatives.
What I am referring to here is in regards to the suspects knife. If he failed to comply with the officers commands to drop the weapon and prone out on the ground, he may quickly end up with no other option but to shoot the guy if he attempted to fight with the officer.
If I was the officer, I'm not sure if I would have hopped over the counter to put "hands on" the suspect, without my full complement of duty tools. The store counter provided a good obsticle between the officer and the suspect and no real place for the suspect to flee to until back-up arrived, and as such provided a greater amount of safety for the officer.
I do think the officer did what he was supposed to do by interrupting an armed robbery, and of course the video provides the means to evaluate and critique his actions. However, I wasn't there, and wasn't the "man on the ground" so I won't go too hard on him other than some of the obvious ways it could have been handled in a safer way.
Just my 2 cents, YMMV
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
also the officer "jumping" over the counter with weapon in hand could've possibly caused the weapon to discharge pre-maturely
If the BG had stayed on the outside of the counter to rob the store, I would have just stayed in the back and been a good witness. When he jumped the counter and attacked the clerk, I would have to do something.
Draw, warn, and if the knife is not dropped and the BG did not back off of the clerk immidiately, then a head shot at powder-burn range would be appropriate.
I use the same few Stop n' Robs regularly, and know the folks who work in them. They aren't family, I don't socialize with them, but I still could not stand idle while a BG chops one of them up while stealing a few dollars.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
I think the officer, did what good cops do, he took decisive action. Were his tactics poor-yes, but he did use the elements of speed, surprise, and aggression to overwhelm and overcome his adversary. Not too bad a job in my book.
Si vis pacem, parabellum
Unfortunately in many cases a LE officer cannot idly stand by as we have a duty to act in many cases. It isn't as black and white as that but looking the other way isn't an option.I would have shot him if I had a clear shot after telling him to drop it. If no clear shot, I would have waited as a victim.
Richard Scalzo, Capt.
It was the officers call to make so I won't "arm chair quarterback" him. One more POS off the street for a while. Good job Officer!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
If it was indeed a legitimate security video...
Good job, damn lucky, but good job.
Coward criminal, or at the least, lack of commitment to complete the objective.
It is just the way I think, but if I were the criminal and the cop was using sufficient poor judgment to put himself in that position behind me in a confined area like that, trying to hold my strong side arm/sleeve with his gun in hand, I own him. Right leg up into his groin, head back into his face, left elbow into to the gut, a good hard push backwards off the counter into the opposite counter or wall, wrap my right arm around his and take that gun probably breaking a couple of his fingers in the process.
I know, easy to say, but those were the basics taught to me in Taekwondo when I was in high school if someone grabs you from behind.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
As a LEO myself, I carry offduty 98% of the time I am out of my home. I always have at minimum a weapon, cuffs and badge with me when I carry. I think this officer made bad tactical decisions but it is easy to armchair quarterback anything. As there is no audio on video, we do not know what the robber said. However, I do not believe I would have ever jumped the counter and got that close to the thief. I would have attempted to prone him out and cuff him or waited for on-duty officers to show. If he refused to prone out and advanced on me or attempted to harm anyone, I would have shot him.