Let's talk about when to shoot someone in the back...

This is a discussion on Let's talk about when to shoot someone in the back... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I would say the legal arrest aspect would be pretty shaky...and the use of deadly force only applies to the guard or peace officer...the use ...

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Thread: Let's talk about when to shoot someone in the back...

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    I would say the legal arrest aspect would be pretty shaky...and the use of deadly force only applies to the guard or peace officer...the use of reasonable force laws still applies to citizens, and no citizen has the authority to use deadly force to prevent somebody from escaping unless they have your property...

    9.52. PREVENTION OF ESCAPE FROM CUSTODY. The use of
    force to prevent the escape of an arrested person from custody is
    justifiable when the force could have been employed to effect the
    arrest under which the person is in custody, except that a guard
    employed by a correctional facility or a peace officer is justified
    in using any force, including deadly force, that he reasonably
    believes to be immediately necessary to prevent the escape of a
    person from the correctional facility.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I am sorry, it's 9.51.
    here it is.
    9.51. ARREST AND SEARCH. (a) A peace officer, or a
    person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, is
    justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
    actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
    make or assist in making an arrest or search, or to prevent or
    assist in preventing escape after arrest, if:
    (1) the actor reasonably believes the arrest or search
    is lawful or, if the arrest or search is made under a warrant, he
    reasonably believes the warrant is valid; and
    (2) before using force, the actor manifests his
    purpose to arrest or search and identifies himself as a peace
    officer or as one acting at a peace officer's direction, unless he
    reasonably believes his purpose and identity are already known by
    or cannot reasonably be made known to the person to be arrested.
    (b) A person other than a peace officer (or one acting at his
    direction) is justified in using force against another when and to
    the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately
    necessary to make or assist in making a lawful arrest, or to prevent
    or assist in preventing escape after lawful arrest if, before using
    force, the actor manifests his purpose to and the reason for the
    arrest or reasonably believes his purpose and the reason are
    already known by or cannot reasonably be made known to the person to
    be arrested.
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Here is the simple, 100% applicable throughout the USA rule:

    Use of lethal force is justified only if required to stop a kidnapping, rape or the use of lethal/maiming force against an innocent (which you better be certain is an innocent).

    Some jurisdictions may differ but for anyone not a LEO the above is the only catch all rule that will cover your use of lethal force in all 50 states. Stray from it if you like but your chances of needing a lawyer will increase dramatically.

    With regards to shooting someone in the back I would say the above rule works in any rampage shooting scenario, home invasions (especially if armed), or situation where the criminal is moving towards cover and not simply beating feet directly away from you.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    MCP, you are technically correct, you just have to remember that the statute does not mention deadly force...
    And just to be complete...definition of lawful arrest per Tx Criminal Procedures

    CCP 14.01 Offense Within View
    (a) A peace officer or any other person, may, without a warrant, arrest an offender when the offense is committed in his presence or within his view, if the offense is one classed as a felony or as an offense against the public peace.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  6. #20
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    BerneyG, I am with you there. It might be shaky ground, but it seems to me there is a whole lot of law here in Texas that depends on what the person in question "believes". In some cases it almost seems that being too familiar with the law can work against you! It is almost like ignorance of the law actually is an excuse! I may oversimplify at times but pretty much the way I see it is "deadly force" is the ultimate "degree of force" and other than the property crimes listed in 9.42 etc anything we would be authorized deadly force to prevent would be a felony. As far as the "lawful arrest" goes, I can't imagine any other reason I would be giving in front of a grand jury, or a trial jury. Even here in Fort Bend county I don't think giving "revenge" or "pool cleaning" as a motive would play very well.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Well, if I was on your jury and you told me 'pool cleaning', I would call it a good shoot...Some days I kind of wish they issued tags for cleaning out the genetic pool...you know, like deer hunting...

    But seriously, I think you are probably right about the being too familiar with the law...and if I ever did have to draw my cw, I am definitely not going to start spouting off Texas Penal code to the investigating officer. I am going to let him know I am a CHL, I am going to say I was scared for my life, and I going to say I am pretty shaken up and I would feel better continuing the interview after I have spoken with an attorney.

    As far as the shaky ground of the lawful arrest...I just don't want to have CNN and Fox news talking about a lot of vigilante CHL's running around trying to be LEO's...not saying you are, but the words "I am a CHL, this is a citizens arrest" could be made to look pretty bad with the left-wing media spin.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Supertac45's Avatar
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    An interesting post.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    if he is a threat, he is a threat.

  10. #24
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    Just yell hey you dropped your wallet, then when they turn around blammo, nobody said bad guys were smart!

  11. #25
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    In my opinion when the BG has his back to you, are you in fear of your life? If not then to me its not a justifible shooting. In my opinion to use your weapon on another you must be in fear of your life or another person in your surronding area life in danger. I feel shooting a fleeing BG and the courts will mince meat out of you. Just my opinion.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array Cupcake's Avatar
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    Indeed folks, if he is fleeing then shooting is a no go, pretty much everywhere but Texas:). The original point of my question, is how do you know if he is fleeing or just going for cover and a better shot at you? I know so many things have to be played as it is seen, I just wanted to have discussion anyway. Perhaps hear some tips or "tells" that indicate when the BG is still in the fight. I know of a couple Border Agents that can tell what a slippery slope the decision can be.

    Sgt Mac has wise words, and mitchell CTs' links are good reading. Thanks all for the many contributions so far...
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  13. #27
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    If he is running away...let him go.
    If he is simply turning away, but has a visible weapon he has just tried to use on me...Boom, Boom, Boom...front, side, back, head, jewels, eye, ear...I really don't care!

    Hopefully, if he has just tried to rob me or take my car, he won't be doing much running or turning...ever again!

    Stay armed...stay safe!
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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    If they're armed, have announced or demonstrated an intention to attack another person(s), and are moving toward that/those person(s), but away from you, I'd say you'd be perfectly justified in shooting them in the back.

    I'd recommend challenging from behind cover before shooting, just in case that might stop them.....AND to meet the requirement for preclusion should it not.
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  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Unfortunately the BG always comes back if they get away. That was a comfort when I was working for Cub Foods and I would miss a catch on a shoplifter, "They'll be back" Eventually I would catch them.

    In this kind of scenario, I would be on edge for quite a while if prior to his tactical advance to the rear I was justified in passing out a Darwin Award, especially if the BG had enough info to find me again (my home, my car, anything that places me in a trap).

    These are the methods that the combatants in Iraq and other places have been using for a long time, and eventually the violent criminals are going to learn that if their plan starts falling apart, all they have to do is turn tail and run and they will be safe to try again later. Practice makes perfect.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    That's not entirely accurate...(see above post) he has to have property of your's or a third person's that you reasonably believe you are responsible for and you have to be reasonably sure you cannot recover that said property any other way...you don't have permission to stop a felon from escaping...just a felon with your property...so plant your wallet on him after you shoot him...
    Does the BG have fingerprints?


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