This is a discussion on Test tube full of blood within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Thumper A gun IS NOT the answer to everything. Threat to human life or severe bodily harm must be IMMINENT for deadly ...
you could argue that the vial isn't deadly on medical grounds, and it could be true. i have no idea either way, as i'm not a doctor.
however, it's illogical to argue that you have any more opportunity to walk away from this situation without the assailant "pulling the trigger" than you would if he had a gun. the attacker could throw it at you at any moment. the nature of the weapon does not change that fact.
i believe the crux of this legal/ethical dilemma would be it's perceived deadliness, and the fear for one's own life that might instill in a reasonable person.
a reasonable person might believe that HIV is transmitted through blood to blood contact. a reasonable person might think that contact could be created here due to glass shards covered with infected specimen.
War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill
Get back inside, you are dealing with a nut.
Call 911, write down everything you can remember verbatim.
Get a desription of the nut and give it to the officer.
Prosecute if possible.
While I do feel a vile full of AIDS infected blood should be considered a deadly threat, I really don't want to pull a trigger. I'm sure there's some liberal DA out there that will look at the difference between "imminent death" and "eventual death". He may then argue that "splashing blood on skin" is a bad way to transmit AIDS. (As Mr. Hudson pointed out, eyes are a different story.) I think I would simply retreat and call police. I would report a death threat, trespassing and anything else I can think of. If I can safely and reasonably communicate with the group, I would inform them of my actions. They might go away on their own.
While I do agree that a deadly threat was made, I would hate to have to prove that to a jury.
why not just go back in no one gets hurt, conflict avoided.
If I could avoid it, I would. But as far as 'close my eyes and cover my mouth'...Your nuts...If I think the guy has any chance of carrying out his threat, I would shoot him. You can argue about a .3% chance of getting infected all you want, but that's too high of a chance for me. I've heard most of you say your responsibility is to you and your family and not going bankrupt and that those 3 are the biggest factors on when you would pull your gun or not. Well, aids medication isn't cheap...it's also not the way I plan to leave this earth. Not a chance, No way, No how. And as far as convincing a jury...how about we admit that test tube into evidence and pass it around the jury for them to get a better look. I don't want it anywhere near me, and I doubt the jury would either.
There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.
Who is John Galt?
Shower immediately, wash the spill area with a strong disinfectant and let air dry, diluted bleach and etc. works great, and consult medical staff. Unless you have a open skin, I doubt you have much to worry about.
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
Simple treatment for the wound of the weapon doesnt change the fact that it is still a weapon. It could still take your life if it is thrown in your eyes or mouth or if the vial is glass and used to create a wound for the poison to enter. You are still being threatened with a deadly weapon. Unconventual, sure but still a weapon.
Retreat seems to be the only viable solution unless the person with that vial and the mob wont let you get away. In that case time to get distance and draw.
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
Folks are going to flame me for this but sorry that to me is not an imminent threat, given the situation I would have walked away and called the police, here is why I feel this way.
1 yes you may feel threatened and he wanted you to feel that way, but you can walk away,
2 you are in a poor possition to start with, say you pull your weapon, you have a hostile crowd, are you willing to shoot every last one of them to prevent them from disarming you? or would you retreat at gunpoint? either way its a bad PR possition and they have achieved what they wanted to do, cause you a headache, Protesting a church they obviously dont like your beliefs and want to draw attn to their cause by stupid means. (attacking a clergyman wont help their cause, so I would not think they would carry out the threat anyway, but with protesters/political terrorist your best bet is to back off and let the police handle it)
3 Is the threat real? you are there you have to decide that, ME im walking away and calling the police, tresspass them. They have broken the law by making threats but I dont feel the threat is real, that does not mean you wont have a defense if you choose to to act, just seems to me that I would rather not have to go that route.
4 what is going to happen once you do fire on that one person, (goes back to 2) are you really ready to risk the lives of your membership over this? because there will likely be retalliation, possibly arson or return gunfire endangering your flock at a later date. Best overall choice for me again is to walk this one off, regardless of the legality of the issue IF you felt you were actually in a life threatening situation its fight or flight, if you have to fight fight by all means, but flight is not wrong either and seems to me the more prudent choice here.
I would always opt for disengagement if it can be done safely as in the original situation; retreat, call 911 stay vigilant until LE arrives.
As for the AIDS virus not being easy to transmit: I have always found it interesting that all the “experts” telling us how difficult it is to transmit the disease are the same ones telling us they need millions more dollars for research because they know so little about the virus. Remember Kimberly Beugallis(?): got AIDS from an infected dentist and died. Sure the vial my be plastic and unbreakable, but how do I KNOW for sure, if someone is holding a gun and making threats, do you assume it is a toy???? Am I going to take even a .001% chance on the SOB actually being able to transmit the disease to me if I can’t disengage? Hell no!!! And those medical personnel getting exposed by needle ***** etc: Don’t they immediately go on the anti viral cocktail, experience all the side effects, costs, and have repeated testing for years if not life to make sure they do not have the infection???? No thanks.
This is one of the few situations where the best move is to turn your back on the aggressor! FYW: I'm a former paramedic and worked in a trauma center for 3 years. Got blood on me many many times. Though that was mostly a pre-AIDs time period.
However, your greatest threat of infection in this type of situation is via your mouth, nose, eyes and hands. At any given time most hands have minor cuts on them due to the fact that we use our hands so much.
By turning your back, you have reduced the threat 20X. Then retreat back into the building; call 911; when the cops show up point to the moron and say "He's the one who threatened to kill me with the infected blood"; and watch the cops haul his miserable butt outta there.
End of problem.
Somewhere in the Pacific NW