Some suggestions as to how to handle this.
This is a discussion on Some suggestions as to how to handle this. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok thank you for the advice here, I was looking more for solutions in case the individual comes back, Since the individual is "unknown" prosecution ...
January 18th, 2008 10:47 AM
Ok thank you for the advice here, I was looking more for solutions in case the individual comes back, Since the individual is "unknown" prosecution is out of my hands, however I have since found out what apartment he lives in, thanks to other friendly customers, I am not concerned with recordings or video, that department is well taken care of, if something happens it will be documented both audio/video. I think, or would like to think that I made the right decision the first time in not firing immediately and waiting to see his hands, but I also know that could cost me my life, which is why I was leaning towards the oc/pepper spray option. My concern here is simply what should I do if the guy comes in and acts like he did before. IE he reaches behind him while making threats and implies he has a weapon. I dont want to shoot anyone here, I dont want to OC anyone, I do want to go home at the end of the day and if I have to I will OC/STAB/SHOOT/CHOKE/BITE/HAIRPULL, you get the picture,
Sixto please dont take this wrong, but what are you getting at with the statement
"Dont it drawn into the false sense of righteousness with the "castle law"... its one of the most misunderstood laws out there, dont think its a golden halo to do what you want in regards to self defense."
My argument about leaving as the LEO suggested was that I have to come back here every day, it is foolish IMO for the officer to think that is a good solution, do I run away each time this guy comes around? leaving the store unattended because he may wish me harm? I am looking for solutions to this that are reasonable, Going back to the police station and restating my concerns is reasonable, especially now that I have the address of above said IDIOT.
That having been said, I dont place a lot of faith in the criminal justice system, seeing as how the aggrevated robber who got a whopping 6 year sentence because he plead down to mere robbery served a whole 18 months of that and is out on parole I am sure this idiot even if they convicted him of assualt would get a whopping 4 days maybe 6 months, so he will be out again shortly, so yes Document everything, keep alert, other than that not much I can do but hope he dont come around again. Thank you all for your help here.
January 18th, 2008 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Southtexas
You just answered your own question. To many people think the castle laws are something special... its really not. Its a feel good appeasement law that doesnt hold much water. If you make an error in judgement, or have a "bad" shoot, your still going to get hung out to dry.
January 18th, 2008 11:46 AM
Check into your force continuim laws. I don't know texas's but here in VA a soon as somebody laws a hand on you (pushing etc..you may use force to repeal the attack)
Favorite trick of bouncers here in VA is to step on a persons toes when that happens the guy usaully pushes them off thus giving the bouncer a shot at the title with the guy. Because the witnesses only see the guy pushing the bouncer back.
Check into your OC laws because that maybe a good first option. Document behavior, and Always DO a press CHECK (if your carrying a semi auto) before you go to work!!!!!!
“Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll
Its not about guns...Its about Freedom!
January 18th, 2008 11:51 AM
If you don't see his hands, after the initial beginning you describe, OC him, and whack the back of his head with a can of RedBull & call the PD. He's "testing", clearly. If you talk to the chief & DA, and take what you already have, in most of TX, a little a**whup would be regarded as extremely tolerant on your part. Don't fight fair, but it doesn't have to be lethal. Just temporarily crippling.
January 18th, 2008 12:47 PM
Get a headset and a belt clip for the phone. That will allow you to talk to the 911 operator while keeping your hands free.
Originally Posted by Southtexas
He now knows you carry a gun. If he comes back the safest assumption is that he is now carrying a gun too. However, being an idiot, he may also be trying to goad you into a fight so he can file a lawsuit for shooting him. (Most idiots don't realize that it's difficult to spend money when your dead.) The idea of having OC spray, tazer and baseball bat available for you or other employees seems pretty sound to me.
Pulling your gun when you did seemed perfectly reasonable to me. Based on your description of events, I think you would have been justified in pulling the trigger. But describing it here and proving in court are two different issues. None of wants to kill someone, much less defend that decision in court.
I hope your surveillance cameras recorded the conversation with the second LEO. If so take that tape along with Texas law concerning concealed carry and self defense (get help from an attorney if needed) and take to the chief of police. Inform him that his officers have not been adequately trained in Texas law concerning concealed carry. You called the police because you need HELP, not a legal lecture that was rife with inaccuracies. Let us now how that turns out.
You have a tough situation. I wish you all the luck.
January 18th, 2008 01:37 PM
Save the video!!!!!!!!!
Save the video!!!!!!!!!
Save the video!!!!!!!!!
Save the video!!!!!!!!!
If he comes back and it end up in a fight (or worse) it will be his word against yours. Unless you can pull out video after video showing him being aggressive. If I was on a jury and it was A Vs B, and suddenly B pulled out several videos of A acting like a jerk. . Guess who I'd believe. When dealing with a PD detective or DA after an incident, the vidio might mean the difference between charges being filed against you, or not.
The only other thing I'd have to say is, the one customer actually did volunteer the $0.50 to the guy, without being threatened. I've done that before when someone in front of me comes up a bit short. "You need $0.20? Here". . Except for the fact that the guy has a history of being a problem at your store, it really was none of your business when the guy behind him volunteered the $0.50.
Last edited by Captain Crunch; January 19th, 2008 at 01:53 AM.
Reason: Deleted a language workaround
Somewhere in the Pacific NW
January 18th, 2008 02:00 PM
I think everybody is missing one little thing. Just because he put his hand out of sight and withdrew his hand without a weapon, does not mean he did not have a gun. I would take it as an absolute positive that the guy was armed and the only reason he did not pull his gun was because the OP had him covered. I would never assume this guy is unarmed, especially now that he knows you do carry a gun. You have more patience and understanding than I do. If a guy is reaching for an unidentified object, advancing towards me, and making threats, even if he sees that I am armed and pointing a gun at him, I have no choice but to believe that he at least thinks he has the ability to carry out those threats. That puts me into the 'fear for my life' stage of things. I just want to say again, just because he didn't pull a gun when he pretended to reach, does not mean he did not have a gun. It just means he didn't think he could pull it before you shot him.
January 18th, 2008 02:37 PM
My issue was not the guy paying for his beer, my issue was with him taking the change from the customer who had so kindly paid for this guys beer already, In other words he took the guys change, sorry thought that was clear, My other concern was the guy probably had a knife that he didnt get to, and that when he saw me draw he decided it would be dumb to continue to pull the knife, (regarding above mentioned post about he may have still had a gun) I checked his profile as he left didnt see a print on him for gun, but that dont mean squat, I also made the mistake or at least I consider it a mistake now of telling the first police who arrived I did not think he had a weapon but that I covered him until he left, then went inside and dialed 911. To my benifit there was a customer in the Drive thru who told me 3 weeks after it happened that he saw the whole thing, I knew there was a car there and that they could see me but I didnt know who it was, He told me he would have shot the guy, Wonder if he would have been around if I had shot?? Video was saved,
Originally Posted by bcvojak
oh someone asked about if the audio caught the second LEO the one who I think was out of line, unfortunate for me audio only picks up inside the store, and I was moving my vehicle away from the where the BG had access to it (he urinated on it through the fence, no big deal to me washed some dirt off, but I didnt like it near the fence so I moved it because I was worried bad guy would try to cut the tires through the fence as well) so I was outside when the second LEO showed up, and if his shift ended at 11 it would explain his less than proper attitude, because he got to the store at 10.30-10.45 or around there, I remember because when he told me he would wait 4 minutes I was like oh yeah thats smooth like Im gonna leave these guys hanging for 15 minutes, no thanks Ill just stay here and close up and if the Police dont think its worth waiting for or at least checking out the apartments for the guy then its his bad luck if he comes back. Dont get me wrong here, I would prefer the police pick him up, but If I am given a choice between hide in fear or do my job and protect myself I am going to do what I think is prudent, yeah I suppose it would have looked bad if the guy came back and something happened, and with that particular LEO I am sure he would have made a point of saying "I TOLD HIM TO LEAVE HE HAD OPPORTUNITY TO FLEE" just seems stupid to me again, if you have time to hassle me about the legality of carrying on a place were alcohol is sold, AGAIN LEGAL in Texas, why not have the time to sweep the apartment complex and see if you can get the bad guy off the street for the night.
Once again thanks for the feedback.
January 18th, 2008 10:26 PM
I would be sending a certified letter to the PD, and CC it to my attorney with the info you described. Bet that will get their attention.
An ounce of lead is worth 200lbs of cop.
January 18th, 2008 10:29 PM
Well, I am surprised that it took 20 posts for it to be stressed.
You showed your trump card, and IDIOT is still at large and not concerned that you are armed.
Weather he had a weapon the first time is academic (I believe he did, no other reason to reach for his butt crack at the time). You can be sure that the next time (and there will be one) he will have one.
Play the LEO game and document, provide copies of tapes, and so on. Inform your coworkers and boss of the situation and what to do (911) if they see him.
I would also work on growing an eye in the back of your head for the next 4 weeks, especially if you are working into the nights. Park under a light, and in view of the front door/window. Avoid shadows and bottlenecks on your way to your vehicle. Watch for tails on the way home. DO NOT become complacent.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
January 18th, 2008 11:45 PM
i agree with just about all the comments so far.
1. keep your wits about you
2. on official letter to the PD and CC lawyer would be a good idea
(including your dissatisfaction with the idiot LEO)
3. make weapons available for other employees and make sure they all know the guys face.
4. either get video cams outside, or if this guy comes back especially, dont go outside. stay where anything can be documented.
it seems that your main concern right now is what would you do if the guy came back and did the same old stuff, and again reached to his back as he did before. i personally wouldnt go for the spray. he knows you have a gun. its VERY possible that he would come back prepared. and if he does draw a gun, and you draw the spray, well. even if you do get him first, he can still get you.
what i would do: if you his hands go anywhere where you cant see them and you think he could be going for a weapon, you draw. and tell him to show his hands. he his hand comes out with a weapon you shoot. especially if this guy is drunk, you can have your sights on him before he probably even has a chance to get our a weapon. with this guys history especially if he is threatening you and reaches for something, you need to be prepared.
Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
(Murder begins where self-defense ends)
January 19th, 2008 09:02 AM
Lots of good advice so far. I would also suggest bringing a backup gun. He already knows you carry, where you carry. Bringing a backup would not only provide an additional firearm but it would be in a different location that he would not know about.
Read up on the laws good so you don't get into trouble. Make sure you tell him to leave while pointing at the door (on tape of course). Document.
OC is also a good idea.
Do they have another store that you could work at? Especially since it's so close to where he lives, I'm guessing that he won't go away on his own.
January 19th, 2008 10:33 AM
Document EVERY encounter.
Make police reports EVERY time.
Get a restraining order (yes, I know that it is just a piece of paper).
Call 911 as soon as this goon sets foot on the property and stay on the line.
Always assume the worst and hope for the best.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
January 19th, 2008 10:33 AM
So this was abt 6 weeks ago, any updates?
January 19th, 2008 07:02 PM
1st don't sell him anything.
2nd, you had a good reason to draw on him
3rd, glad you didn't fire
4th, call cops whenever he is close
5th, document every call and every time
6th, educate employees
7th, OC spray may be your next best defense rather than your pistol.
8th, give ground into you building before defending.
9th, make him know he is unwelcome there.
10th, you are in a tough situation, stay calm, play defensively, be prepared.
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