Some suggestions as to how to handle this.
This is a discussion on Some suggestions as to how to handle this. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have a problem I wanted to throw out here because I think I will get better feedback here than from what my local Police ...
January 18th, 2008 06:00 AM
Some suggestions as to how to handle this.
I have a problem I wanted to throw out here because I think I will get better feedback here than from what my local Police force has advised.
Situation about 6 weeks ago was as follows
1 I am the night manager at a convenience store, at about 4 pm a regular customer who has a history of harassing other costumers is short about .50 for his beer, I told him I could not help him out, the customer behind him says he will pay for it because he is in a hurry.
The first customer here to referred to as IDIOT, then gets his beer, and takes the change out of the good samaritans hands, and starts to walk out, I tell him to stop and give the customer his money back, he tells me its not my concern, I tell him that the change is the good samaritans, he gives the guy a hard look and says "you got a problem" of course the guy is scared and says "no you keep it"
2 IDIOT walks back into store 2 hours later, I tell him he is no longer allowed on the property because of what happened before, he gets belligerent and threatening, I tell him to leave again and advise him that he is now criminally trespassing.
3 30 minutes later I am outside smoking a cigarette, the guy comes back on property cussing and saying I better not <some cursing> with him, I tell him he needs to leave again and he rushes at me, I can see both of his hands because he is coming at me with both exposed, he takes a swing at me and knocks the cigarette out of my mouth, I push him back and back up.
4. At this point he is still talking trash, I tell him he needs to get off the property, he says "i got something for you <more cursing>" and reaches behind his back with his right hand,
5. PUCKER FACTOR the guy is 8-9 feet from me, I draw on him and tell him to let me see his hands, he shows his hands but is still antagonistic and starts towards me, I now am in pucker factor + 3, still coming down from realizing he didn't have a weapon, but now realizing I may have to shoot him to prevent him disarming me.
I use as strong a language as possible to encourage him to leave, I guess he realized I was about to shoot him and he walks off, still making threats.
6. Call 911, first officers to arrive have been to my location before, one of them several times, they ask what happened, I explain and offer them the video, tell them this guy is gonna be a problem and he needs to be picked up. They basically tell me what I already know, they cant do anything etc etc, if he comes back to call them.
7. 1 hour later Mr. IDIOT comes back up to the property chain link fence which borders his apt complex and starts yelling loud enough that the 911 operator had trouble hearing me try to describe the guy.
(theres a drive through window that faces the apt complex) I tell the operator to please get a unit out here as soon as possible. The IDIOT is intoxicated and still making threats to me and saying stuff about my wife and daughter who had both worked there before, stuff that would get most people beat down in the streets, I Ignore the rants but he does the dumbest thing I have ever seen anyone do, KNOWING I HAVE A GUN HE TRIES TO TAUNT ME BY SAYING YEAH <cursing> HERE ILL REACH AGAIN, WHAT YOU GOING TO DO SHOOT ME? (how am I supposed to know or not know if he has a weapon? I assumed and luckily for me correctly that the crackhead was just blowing steam and if he had a gun he would have been shooting and not talking)
8. 30 minutes later and about 30 minutes before I'm gonna close the store another unit shows up, I assumed incorrectly that he would know what the situation was, he was clueless, so I have to go and explain the whole thing again, I get the LEO who hates CHL owners and apparently is not too bright either since law in Texas has been around for almost 12 years now you would think he knows what the law is, apparently not or he had selective memory.
9. Instead of him being concerned about the fact that this IDIOT had continued to make threats his concern was about why I have a gun in a place of business that sells alcohol, NOT ILLEGAL IN TEXAS, EVEN WITHOUT A CHL as a supervisor I CAN CARRY ON PREMISE. He tells me I cant carry anywhere alcohol is sold, I am a bit upset at this point anyway because I am getting the bend over here, I was going to ask him to call a sergeant out, and now regret not doing that, either way he tells me "you need to get in your car and leave"
OK maybe that would work for some people, but I am not calling 911 because I need protection, I am calling him out here to arrest a person making terroristic threats, he tells me he will wait in the parking lot for 4 minutes if I am concerned about my own safety I should use that time to get out of there. NO disrespect to any LEO here but IMO this LEO is an IDIOT, sure I can leave, but I have to return to work, so what is the point? would it not be wiser to go find the idiot who was making threats?
I tell the LEO I am not about to "leave my employees at risk for my own safety especially if he is not going to stick around" he tells me that should there be an incident that I had the opportunity to retreat but choose not to, IS THIS FOR REAL? As I understand the law as recently passed last September 2007 it now exempts me from having to retreat at work or from my car, but I'm not a lawyer and I don't want to be the trial case for the new law either.
What I have done is simply keep my eyes open for this guy, if he comes back on property I am going to assume he has come back to make good on his threat, I have determined my best chance of survival here is to use OC spray on him if he walks in regardless of his intent, simply because of his stupidity in the past about claiming a fake weapon. I don't want to seem cold hearted here but I strongly feel if he claims to have a weapon again I should shoot first and not find out the wrong way, I don't regret not shooting the first time, but how am I going to know if the guy is playing games or not? I don't want my conditioning to get to the point where I say its ok for someone to tell me they are reaching for a weapon and I don't do anything until its too late because honestly I got lucky on my draw time, (practice practice practice) of course since I have not seen this IDIOT again he probably is not coming back, none the less advice here from the forum would be helpful. THANK YOU.
January 18th, 2008 07:14 AM
If this guy has a pattern of harrassing customers he should have been banned long ago.
The weekend is here, he'll likely surface again soon. Go down to the PD, write a statement, and discuss this with a supervisor who's on duty. You ought to get some decent advice/plan.
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.
January 18th, 2008 07:29 AM
Sorry you ran into the jerk, anti-CCW cop that every department seems to have (even in Texas!) Congrats on what sounds like a reasoned and responsible response.
I would caution against OCing the IDIOT as soon as he walks in the door - that won't look good to people who don't know the whole story, and they won't know the whole story until you've spent a good deal of time at the police station (possibly on the wrong side of the holding cell bars). It sounds like this guy will give you plenty of reason to OC him within seconds of making his appearance, anyway...
As to shooting if he makes like he is going for a weapon - that's going to have to be your call, obviously. Here are some thoughts:
1) He is obviously a belligerent, violent, criminal screwball. He may very well be armed and have the intent to kill you or cause you great bodily harm. He has demonstrated the intent to harm you in the past (admittedly without weapons, but still.)
2) He has demonstrated on at least two occasions that he is, in fact, unarmed (or was at the time, at least). While this certainly doesn't mean he can't get a weapon in the future, it could be presented as evidence that you knew he was unarmed, even if he made the "furtive gestures" we all know and love.
It's a tough call, and you're in a crappy position. Hopefully, you'll be able to resolve it with (yet another) visit from the police - hopefully you'll get one of the helpful and knowledgeable cops this time (they are the majority, I swear!)
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
January 18th, 2008 07:44 AM
I removed the language work arounds. I think everyone will get the idea that the guy was cursing at you. I corrected some spelling and formatted the text a bit to make it easier to read.
You need to talk with a supervisor at the police station. Make a report and be specific about this guy. Be vigilant. This guy may have friends and may want to try to disarm you.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
January 18th, 2008 08:08 AM
Being a night manager of a convenience store is a tough go at times. Kind of like being a bartender. That being said, a good part of your job is being able to avoid confrontations and escalation of confrontations. Some people are better at this than others, but once a problem gets to the threat stage, you need to act. Calling police should never result in the problems you have encountered. It sounds like you lucked into a lazy know it all and you ruined his donut break. Get a trespass order against the guy and have him arrested next time he sets foot on the property.Paper won't stop a determined assailant, but it will document your problem. I would still contact the Sarge and speak to him about your problem and the officers response. The over riding theme here is that you are on your own, take your beating and I hope you live.Have a nice evening and quit bothering me with your problems... or I'll make you sorry. The sad part is that that is from the cops.
January 18th, 2008 08:31 AM
Write a letter to the chief. With the calls already there is a paper trail , but I would let the chief know for sure how his patrolman acted cover your backside . He is the one person the patrolman will show some respect too. And god forbid he does come back armed. do what it takes to save your life. Notify all other employees about him, and if it is your store I would have a taser under the counter for your fellow workers. it will put him down and give them some escape time.
Last edited by Scott; January 18th, 2008 at 09:31 AM.
Reason: removed profanity filter work around
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
January 18th, 2008 08:56 AM
I second ppkheat's post.......go down to the PD and relay the story....again....with the watch commander and (possiably) get a case number. Request extra drive-by's for patroling officers. If IDIOT comes by again call it in and reference the case number. This will help cover your bases and the watch commander/shift supervisor will/may have good advice for handeling this situation WHEN this IDIOT returns.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
"Sometimes when you're making gumbo, people just show up.", Leah Chase
January 18th, 2008 09:02 AM
I was told that unless the police actually see the person on the property they cant issue a Criminal Trespass warning, the first officers who responded gave me a case # which I carry on my person incase something else occurs and the 911 tape was recorded I would think, the operator had to ask me 3 times to repeat the description because she could not hear/understand me due to the IDIOTS yelling in the background.
Regarding Opfors points, I was concerned about that second one, if in fact he comes back and pretends to have a weapon or acts like he has one again, It is a real crappy situation for me, which is why I said I think my first responce is going to be a straight out OC spray, as far as I am concerned he has been given a criminal tresspass warning, it was made clear to him he is not welcome there, #1 by me, and #2 by the owner of the store as well. If he does not leave as soon as told to leave again I think OC is a prudent choice for the following reasons,
1 his past behavior indicates to me that he may or may not have a weapon, But I do know he is willing to assualt me if he thinks he has the upper hand. (these old bones are much slower than they used to be, as evidenced by the fact that he actually knocked the smoke out of my mouth, but I can still dance)
2 If he does have a weapon OC may not disable him but it will put him at a severe disadvantage in deploying it.
3 If he does not reach for a weapon but still refuses to leave I could pick up the phone and talk to 911 for 5 minutes while he has the tactical advantage for all I know I will be shot in the head while im talking on the phone, I suppose dialling 911 and holding the oc in one hand is an option but i would rather have a free hand to draw if need be.
4 one solution to this I had not thought about till now anyone know where I can get that trunk monkey in the beer cooler variant?
January 18th, 2008 09:15 AM
Trunk monkey in the beer cooler would be a GREAT solution.
I know it would be expensive, but how about an occasional off-duty officer on the premises until this guy decides he's not welcome?
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.
January 18th, 2008 09:42 AM
Two options. Option one comes in three parts:
(i) Get a restraining order;
(ii) Continue to call the police and document the behavior;
(iii) Be prepared.
Option two is easier, but probably not going to work: get another job.
"...bad decisions that turn out well often make heroes."
Gary D. Mitchell, A Sniper's Journey: The Truth About the Man and the Rifle, P. 103, NAL Caliber books, 2006, 1st Ed.
January 18th, 2008 09:49 AM
what a mess...now you have the added liability of your employees getting harmed...
I'd make sure you have witnesses that heard you tell the guy he is not allwoedon the property. Make sure you have a coupel reports on file to the cops about his behavior..Arm yourself with a gun and with non lethal as well. Pepper spray, a bat or some other deterent should he come looking for a brawl. Every time you see hom on the property call 911...even if you dont want to, it forces them to document he is a problem. That way if and when you have to handle it yourself you have minimized some liability.
January 18th, 2008 09:57 AM
You said you have video. Make a copy and take it to the PD station and talk with a supervisor. Also explain what eh last officer told you. Finally, if no one else seems to want to help, take the tape to the prosecutor.
Having prior documentation will help if you need to take any further action.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
January 18th, 2008 10:10 AM
Thats some solid advice...
Originally Posted by rocky
Im going to suggest that you dont speak with him at all for any reason. When he comes around, call the police. If things get out of hand, do what you got to do.
Dont it drawn into the false sense of righteousness with the "castle law"... its one of the most misunderstood laws out there, dont think its a golden halo to do what you want in regards to self defense.
January 18th, 2008 10:15 AM
If he took a swing at you, and as you say it's on videotape... Press charges.
The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.
January 18th, 2008 10:18 AM
This is one of the times I would suggest a voice-activated recorder. If Booger shows up again, and his hands disappear, start saying loudly, "Are you reaching for a weapon, let me see your hands!" Equally, if you have 911 on the line, you'll have the same source, but you can take your tape directly to the lawyer I hope you've already called.
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