Hotel situation.

This is a discussion on Hotel situation. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What happened to my response? If I violated a rule and a Mod removed it please let me know what it was. Bryan...

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Thread: Hotel situation.

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array GoodSamaritan's Avatar
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    What happened to my response?

    If I violated a rule and a Mod removed it please let me know what it was.

    Bryan

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  3. #17
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    I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.

    Intervention, while extremely risky, doesn't always have a bad ending. And, granted, the "hero" can be made out to be anything but that. Sometimes it is easier to make decisions when it is impersonal, so let me up the ante if I may:

    What if I, Tangle, was one of the ones in the hotel at risk of being shot, would you still do nothing?

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.

    Intervention, while extremely risky, doesn't always have a bad ending. And, granted, the "hero" can be made out to be anything but that. Sometimes it is easier to make decisions when it is impersonal, so let me up the ante if I may:

    What if I, Tangle, was one of the ones in the hotel at risk of being shot, would you still do nothing?
    The Appalachian State incident. Yes. The two students, off-duty LEO's as I recall, exited the building, went to their trucks, retrieved their guns, remained outside and confronted the gunman on the front steps as he exited the building. The timing may have been such that they did not have an opportunity to re-enter the building before the gunman emerged. IIRC, the gunman was also out of ammo.

    Once can always add what-if's (what if I'm wearing a uniform, what if my family is at risk, what if a good friend's life was on the line) that will alter one's response to the scenario, invalidating prior responses and compromising the value of the exercise. It seems to me that the real question for those of us who would leave is "what would it take for us to go back into the building?"

    The nature of one's job must be factored in. If one is a security guard, that is very different from a backoffice accounting clerk, housekeeper, or maintenance engineer, with a whole different duty to act and expectation of service. It would also depend on what I know about the corporate culture. If the company were like Conoco or Williams, and likely to do their best to ruin my life and my family's future, however righteous my defense, then I would be less inclined to take an unnecessary and unappreciated personal risk.

    Family is a big factor, too. If I have no dependents, my response is going to be different than if I have a family to think about. If I weren't being paid to put my life on the line, I would have to be saving a very special friend, and I would have to think hard, before I risked leaving my children fatherless and my wife a widow with no income.

    Regardless, the act of leaving the building, retrieving a gun, and re-entering a building, not knowing what variables have changed while you were away, is a very dangerous move, no matter how well you know the place. The shooting is already underway before I leave and likely complete by the time I return. If I felt the need to return, I don't know if I would enter the building or not, unless I were trained to clear the premises. I'd probably take up a defended position, outside, and try to prevent the shooter's escape, letting the police who are trained, equipped and qualified clear the building. If I felt the need to return, and the shooting was on-going, then I might be compelled to re-enter the building and attempt to stop the attack.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    I recall the incident that happened at the Virgina law school a few years back: a guy shot a professor(s) and some students. Two students ran to their cars, retrieved their guns and confronted the madman. He immediately surrendered and dropped his gun and the killing ended.
    This is different from the scene given here. The two "students" SAW what was happening, and knew the layout. The first message in this thread says:
    You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.
    WHile you might know the layout, you have NO idea of what is really going on.

    The classroom situation deserves a completely different assessment, and I would be more prone to go back into that situation, since I have more information.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  6. #20
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    rstickle,
    My point was that intervention can have a good ending, not that it was a similar situation, but you make a good point.

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Simple solution(if you hear screaming and shots, that's good enough for me)- use a magazine and slap an overhead sprinkler. If you're on 911, tell them what's "happened", after you've done it (it "happened", not "I hit the sprinklers"; they'll tell you not to), so that FD doesn't come in blind. Disorient and distract the shooter. May make it better, maybe worse, but at least it will make people MOVE , not sit there waiting to be asked if they believe in Jesus. :chairshot

  8. #22
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    You may be on to something there!

  9. #23
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    Simple solution(if you hear screaming and shots, that's good enough for me)- use a magazine and slap an overhead sprinkler. If you're on 911, tell them what's "happened", after you've done it (it "happened", not "I hit the sprinklers"; they'll tell you not to), so that FD doesn't come in blind. Disorient and distract the shooter. May make it better, maybe worse, but at least it will make people MOVE , not sit there waiting to be asked if they believe in Jesus.
    On the downside, you've got people in somewhat relative safety locked in their rooms, set into an immediate evacuation into the hallways, providing more targets for the shooter. While everybody's thinking "Fire!" the screams and turmoil around them are actually their hotel neighbors getting shot in between the screams of the fire alarm. And then when the cops come, they've got water dumping all over them, slippery stairwells and floors, and wet, panicked people bottlenecking out the exits that they're entering.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    You're 100% Betty. This was just an option I offered up to my daughter, in the event of a Columbine-type of event. Response should be fluid, and situation-dependant- this was just an option. The flip side of the mob potential is overwhelimng the assailant(s). If people are scared/po'd, its not unusual for them to react with violence; the Chinese are great evidence of the efficacy of human-waves in the face of fire.

    FYI- Her school's policy, "in the event of "world-crisis"", is to have all the students relocate in one "secure" room. Having gone through the school, this is feel-good stupidity on sooo many levels. I try to get her to look at things from "the other side", and not get too James Bond/Red Dawn.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by acparmed
    I work Security at the Las Vegas Hilton.
    Cool I'm going to be there next month for a few days, have you ever been to the gun shop that you can rent full auto's at? Shot a Thompson last time what a hoot.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  12. #26
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    Sheldon - There are several gunshop/ranges in town that you can rent and shoot full-auto. You can even rent and shoot full-auto suppressed.
    Either The Gun Store on Tropicana or The American Gun Club on Arville are my suggestions. I think the rental costs are $25 plus ammo.

    If you have any other questions PM me and I'll answer whatever I can.

    Stay Safe and Shoot Well,
    Bob
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  13. #27
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    FYI- Her school's policy, "in the event of "world-crisis"", is to have all the students relocate in one "secure" room. Having gone through the school, this is feel-good stupidity on sooo many levels. I try to get her to look at things from "the other side", and not get too James Bond/Red Dawn.
    An aquaintance of mine is a teacher at a local private high school. His school's policy is to go into lockdown and close the blinds. I asked why, if the threats are already inside the school, they would close the blinds and keep the good guy sharpshooters outside from seeing in?

    In finding solutions to life-threatening problems, it's important to try to find ones that don't compound the problem. There's no easy, foolproof solution to most scenarios, because there's so many variables of things that can happen. It's hard enough to deal morally with deaths of third parties if you decide to run for your own safety, but getting ones killed as a direct result of your own actions affects you morally and legally.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Of course, the one solution that "no one" wants to talk about, would be teaching firearms safety in public schools, and having armed, trained, teachers in the schools. Kinda hard to seriously discuss "tolerance", and "Bobby's Two Daddys", when you actually have to be responsible for life and death decisions, (or actually responsible for anything) though.....

  15. #29
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    The actual response would be dictated by the area you live in. In my case I have very anti-gun police chief, sheriff, and prosecutors...even though VA is very gun friendly. Having to leave and return with a gun no longer puts you in a defense situation and you could be prosecuted with them using terms like "mowed down" or "stalked and killed" with a "high power automatic assault handgun". Sorry, maybe those people in the hotel should carry their own gun?
    They who give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin


    Previously known as "cjm5874"

  16. #30
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    Rob,
    I heard that loud and clear. I teach at a community college and if a shooting starts, I'll have to decide between doing everything I can so I get to go home to my family when it's over or try to do everything I can to make sure my students get to go home after it's over.

    There's a big difference in my response, one involves me forgetting about students and taking action that maximizes my safety and the other involves putting my students first and taking action to maximize their safety at my expense.

    One side of me says the "state" has already decided the students' fate in such a situation, by passing laws that essentially make them defenseless in the school/classroom. If I could carry in my school/classes, I'd stay and fight and protect, but I can't so I don't know.

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