Hotel situation.

Hotel situation.

This is a discussion on Hotel situation. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Miggy asked me to write this up as a possible situation for comment. He works in a strictly ''no gun'' hotel environment. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In defiance ...

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  1. #1
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    Hotel situation.

    Miggy asked me to write this up as a possible situation for comment. He works in a strictly ''no gun'' hotel environment.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    In defiance of your employer's guidelines you keep your gun safely locked and hidden away in your car .... which is parked not far off in staff parking area.

    You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.

    You are in a safe area and can get away without being seen or hurt. Having tho not actually eyeballed the scene - you can only speculate as to the actual events unfolding.

    The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array firefighter4884's Avatar
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    Chris...

    I think it would come down to how I felt about the people inside the hotel. If they were as close to me as say...most of the members of my first aid squad, then yes, I'm going back in. Technically we're not related, but we have the kind of bond that makes us family.

    If it's a job, and I don't have anyone really close to me inside, then I'll probably stay out of it (as much as that would kill me to do...but from a legal standpoint it makes more sense...after all, you've escaped the violence, and now you're going to escalate the scene by going back in...

    at least that's the way the gun grabber's mind will work...

    just me 0.02.

    --Jim
    Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing.

    ~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    You hear shots in the reception area and imagine there is perhaps a disgruntled former employee taking out his fustrations trying to kill your coworkers.

    You are in a safe area and can get away without being seen or hurt. Having tho not actually eyeballed the scene - you can only speculate as to the actual events unfolding.

    The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.
    That's a tough call even if your company permits carry. You can't see what's going on, you have called police and they are responding. I think I might have the tendency to stay someplace where I can hopefully help to direct responding police rather than go in.

    Reasoning, in short? 1. I really don't know the situation "inside", could be more than one shooter, I also don't know where he (or they) might be. 2. The cops arrive to a "shots fired" call and I'm standing there with my weapon out..... Again, could be real unhealthy for me. Just seems like the odds are real bad if you go in. Now, if I was armed and in there so I could see the situation................ Whole different ballgame!

    Can't wait to hear what others think!!
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  4. #4
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    For myself - on initial consideration - I feel somehow I'd be duty-bound to return with gun. Not to necessarily engage but at least to sum up situation and maybe save lives if appropriate. First priority would be (assuming I came back in way I went out - unseen) to find a way to assess scene visually. That's a must.

    If cops responding then we have to ask - how long? Chances are it will be some minutes, during which time much mahem could go down. Let's assume for now - one bad guy intent on taking out any staff he can see and maybe too, sufficiently cranked up to shoot at anything he can see.

    If I saw that and could get a safe series of shots off at the BG - I would - as I'd be unable to simply observe folks being shot up. It would if you will be my moral duty - and to heck with consequences - tho some might say I should have stayed outside - but there again - that ain't helping anyone.

    If cops turn up then naturally I am downing a gun and ready to be compliant.

    I'll chew this over further.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  5. #5
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    I work Security at the Las Vegas Hilton and have thought about this scenario many times. We are unarmed (due to corporate stupidity) and unfortunately my gun is in the trunk of my car in the employee parking area which is so far removed from the casino hotel area that by the time I got to my gun and returned it would either be over or Metro would be on the scene.

    I have tried to explain the absurdity of this to the execs and they just don't care. I keep hoping that is this ever does happen it's the execs who are getting shot to pieces. :chairshot
    Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences

    "I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
    ~George Patton

    DE OPPRESSO LIBER

  6. #6
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    I keep hoping that if this ever does happen it's the execs who are getting shot to pieces.
    That Bob at least would seem some sorta justice tho of course so logically and potentially avoidable.

    Pity it seems they have no trust for their employees. Occurs to me too actually - maybe those very exec's consider themselves ''special'' enough that they might just carry themselves - if not then they are blind to their own safety.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #7
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    I'm with rstickle on this one.

    I'm not the kind of person to turn a blind eye to people in need, but I must also look out for my own safety. A shooting in a building full of people and rooms can be confusing; I don't want to be mistaken for being the shooter by the police or another carry permit holder. I learned basic room-clearing techniques, but doing it by myself in a hotel with doors and rooms everywhere and people running about in panic is incredibly scary and dangerous. Having a carry permit is not the equivalent of a police badge, and we've got to be very careful. I'll also admit that my recent engagement put things into a whole new perspective for me, in that I'm not living just for myself.
    "Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa

  8. #8
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    Man, talk about a hard call! Where do you guys come up with this stuff? I'm gonna have nightmares again tonight.

  9. #9
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    I'm not positive how I would react in this one until it actually happened. I would probably get my gun and go back to the fourth floor where many of my staff and friends have offices and see what the situation is there. I would be hard pressed to stay in the parking garage knowing that many of the people I have worked with for many years were in danger. When it was all over, if I had to use or uncover my gun, I would almost surely lose my job for being armed in a government building.
    Bumper
    Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde; Beware the anger of a patient man.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Evade and Escape. If I can get out safely I would just get in my car and head for nearest phone. Say you do get your pistol and shoot it out with guy, and stop his forward motion forever, but in the process the guy gets a couple of your co-workers. Then now you will face whatever comes next, possibly prison because you were free and could have called but you decide to engage the guy or gal. The chips are down in your favor in my opinion and you are up the river dude, but hey good shootin..
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  11. #11
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    you are not PD, and should not even try to clear a building on your own. SWAT uses a group for a reason. Too many areas to cover with 1 or even 2 people.

  12. #12
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    Blue,
    I think you misread.
    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    The question is: Would you go to your vehicle, retrieve your gun and return inside try to stop a probable madman? Let's assume that you have called 911 and help is on the way.

    911 has already been contacted and units are responding. Now, most of my county is covered only by NJSP. If it were legal for me to store a firearm in the car, there would be one there. I've known it to take 15 minutes + for a a single trooper to arrive on scene. What's going to happen in that 15 minutes?

    The question is, can you contain and control the situation by yourself and subdue the BG, and then manage to avoid getting shot by the hyped up PD when they come banging in the doors?

    --Jim
    Firefighter / EMT - Always Ready. Ever Willing.

    ~Never do anything that you don't want to have to explain to the paramedics...~

  13. #13
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    The clear issue here is intervention. The tactical consensus is don't - end of discussion.

    But the moral and conscience issue is far from so decisive. The decision each of us must make is would we rather put ourself at risk and try to save innocent lives, or save ourself and allow the slaughter of innocent life and live with that the rest of our life.

    I know I couldn't bear living the rest of my life knowing I was better equipped and trained than anyone in there and did nothing. So my answer is, I'm going to do everything I can as tactically as I can, to stop the killing if I can, until the police get there.

    I realize lot's can happen, but a lot's gonna happen if I do nothing.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    This is an unpleasant one. For me, the answer is clear, if unpleasant. No. It is the company's right to decide that its employees will be disarmed on company property, and the company has sole responsibility for the consequences. My first priority is to my family. If I have called 911, and have a safe avenue of retreat, then I have a duty to save myself. First, I owe it to my family to preserve myself. Second, I can't help anyone if I am dead. Third, no company that disarms its employees is worth dying for.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  15. #15
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    It is nice to see I am pretty much in the same wavelenght with everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle
    Man, talk about a hard call! Where do you guys come up with this stuff? I'm gonna have nightmares again tonight.
    That I can answer easily. Just recently the hotel had to fire an employee. This person had a history of being verbally violent and confrontational although the reason for his firing was not related to his attitude. The SOP is for him to meet with his manager and the HR director, explain why was the decission taken and give him his walking papers. It is also SOP that a Security Officer to be nearby in case SHTF. For this guy we had two Officers present. The employee was terminated and escorted out without any problems. After that I got to think the "What If's" and that is how I got to give Tangle another nightmare.

    I see that everybody pretty much has been thinking like me along the tactical/moral lines. This is what has been going through my head:

    Pro: I have the means to stop the guy from killing innocent people (Keyword: Innocent). Some might be guests, some might be employees. Some I don't care much, some others are nice young folks with bright futures ahead. I wear an uniform so I have a good chance that the PD won't shoot my sorry butt if they see me armed. I now the lay of the hotel backwards and forwards which most employees do not so I have a tactical advantage on my avenues of approach and use of cover.

    Cons: I will lose my job. I will probably end on the news as a Vigilante (Broward County is as anti-gun as D.C.) The bad guy may get lucky and get me a new hole somewhere where it hurts. Ditto for the PD if I happen to encounter some less than cool-minded officer. I might hit an innocent person. I might get sued by the family of the deceased bad guy. I might get prosecuted by the county and end up with a alternative lifestyle partner in jail.

    And then comes the moral dilemma: If I don't do something, can I live with myself knowing that I could have?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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