FBI shootout from 86- Interesting read

FBI shootout from 86- Interesting read

This is a discussion on FBI shootout from 86- Interesting read within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is info from a 1986 shootout in Miami between 2 BG's and 8 FBI. Wow is all I can say. Belated prayers to the ...

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Thread: FBI shootout from 86- Interesting read

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    Senior Member Array bps3040's Avatar
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    FBI shootout from 86- Interesting read

    This is info from a 1986 shootout in Miami between 2 BG's and 8 FBI.
    Wow is all I can say. Belated prayers to the agents and their family's

    FBI-Miami Shootout


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    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    I was working with an FBI agent on a telecommunications fraud case (I put a former employer who screwed me in federal prison for 18 months) shortly after this happened. He knew I was a gun nut and loaned me the official FBI training VHS recreation of this shooting. There was indeed much to be learned.

    As a little side note....The FBI weapons section (or what ever it is called) made the recommendation that the FBI switch to the 10mm for improved stopping probability. However the women and small stature men in the FBI had great difficulty controlling the original 10mm loading. So the FBI ordered down loaded ammo for the 10mm; S&W looked at the performance of the loading and said "We can achieve that performance from a case the same length as a 9mm; and so was born the .40 caliber Short & Weak.

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    There was a made for TV movie titled In the Line of Duty: The FBI Murders that aired in 1988. The producers went above and beyond to make the film as factual as it could possibly be. It was an extremely compelling and disturbing film.

    It has been released on DVD.

    In the Line of Duty: The F.B.I. Murders (1988) (TV) - IMDb user comments


    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


    Terry

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    Member Array riverkeeper's Avatar
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    Thanks Captain---netflix has it.
    Old testament....Shooting to Live 1942
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf
    Newer testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

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    VIP Member Array NCHornet's Avatar
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    That's weird that you posted this as I just read the entire story a few days ago, needless to say there was lots to learn from what went down that day. Sad for the families of the fallen agents!!
    NCH
    When Seconds Count, The Cops Are Just Minutes Away!!
    Carry On!
    NCHornet

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    Senior Member Array Sarge45's Avatar
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    The Mini-14 played a major role in the outcome of that shootout. That shootout left a bad taste in the mouth of Bill Ruger and that was one factor in his decision to end the mfg. of his hi-cap mags, folding stock sales to the public and going before Congress and calling for a total ban on mags over 10 rounds.

    If you havn't seen the movie, you need to get it and check it out. Well worth your time.

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    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    The main factor of that shootout was the use of tactics by the BG'S. IIRC, one or both of the BG's were Army rangers. They were advancing and using suppressive fire on the agents. LEOs at that time were not trained how to handle such tactics.

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    I work in an FBI field office....I pass by the FBI's Hall of Honor at least twice a day....it's hard not to look at the photos of the departed agents...including those of SAs Grogan and Dove.
    USAF: Loving Our Obscene Amenities Since 1947

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    Member Array vernonator's Avatar
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    That gave me chills...and also makes me glad I carry .45. All those 9mm hits and they just kept on trucking.....(not saying a .45 would have made a differance but it sure as hell would not have hurt)

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    Member Array riverkeeper's Avatar
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    Watched it last evening.

    Pure heroism by the FBI guys to face the fire and dogged determinism to kill and survive by the BGs.

    Was that an old 38 Spl the severly wounded FBI guy used to put down both BGs??

    (I'm not good on HG ID.)
    Old testament....Shooting to Live 1942
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...ng_to_live.pdf
    Newer testament... Kill or Get Killed 1976/1987
    http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/...Get_Killed.pdf

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    I believe that one of the conclusions of the shootout was poor bullet design and performance.

    The 9mm JHP's didn't expand but perfromed like FMJ's and the LSWCHP's from the 38's didn't penatrate the car bodies.
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

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    Member Array jwr747's Avatar
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    if you read the LEO poop sheets of today,that situation of "trained BG's" against LEO's, is happening today.Gang Bangers,crack heads,ect. are taking the time to train with their weapons and learning how to use military tatics to keep ahead of LEO's. several times lately where the cops were ambushed. day light "home invasions" ect. as Mr. Dylan said "the times ,they are a changing" jwr

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    This stands as a testament to so many things, it really is one of the seminal "examples" of the mostly modern age. Some things that I took away from it (having studied it for years now):

    Rifles trump pistols in all cases, and shotguns in most cases.

    People can and do fight through terminal wounds.

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "KNOCKDOWN" POWER - one of the BGs got shot in both feet, while moving, with a 12 gauge loaded with self defense rounds, and didn't fall. If you don't get knocked over from that, you aren't getting knocked over.

    Secure your weapon - at least one agent lost his pistol when his car stopped abruptly.

    There are many others, of course, but these always jumped out as being somewhat overlooked in the flurry to blame caliber, bullet design, and so on (not that these were ideal, mind you, just that they weren't the only things not ideal on that day).
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    What has always struck me is that the first shot that hit Platt was fatal, but it did not stop him. He fought for 4-5 minutes after receiving that initial and fatal shot. What stopped both Matix and Platt were hits to or near to the nervous system.

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    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    i read about this incident,it pretty much quelled the idea a lot of people have about the mini 14 not being very accurate.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.”
    ― Thomas Paine

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