Nightmares (or pipe dreams) About Prosecution for Self-Defense **Merged** - Page 2

Nightmares (or pipe dreams) About Prosecution for Self-Defense **Merged**

This is a discussion on Nightmares (or pipe dreams) About Prosecution for Self-Defense **Merged** within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Tx law prevents civil lawsuits in a good shoot. I'm not worried about Johny's mother, or Johny. Every job has an occupational hazard. If you ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Tx law prevents civil lawsuits in a good shoot. I'm not worried about Johny's mother, or Johny. Every job has an occupational hazard. If you want to be a thug, murdurer, rapist, or thief in Tx, then GG's who are willing to fight back are the occupational hazard. I am tired of seeing Electrician among the top 5 most hazardous jobs...it's time 'career criminal' makes that list...at number 1.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  2. #17
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    Florida has its advantages...
    The Castle Doctrine is not a guarantee, but it's a great start. Seeing that I'm only interested in protecting me and mine...being robbed, carjacked, or having my home broken into means that a lethal defense in these situations is very much in my favor.

    Stay armed...stay safe!
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Ugh. That's a guy shooting someone over a T.V.

    I suspect the OP wants that addressed, but would rather hear about interceding in violent attacks - as they referred to a woman being stabbed repeatedly.

    I do giggle when I hear Joe head out the door and rack his shotty though.
    No it was not over a TV (?).
    Again though as I said to start the laws and people views of TX are very different than the rest of the country. But even with that the societal feedback alone as well as reports in Joe Horn threads toward his dealing with his case post shooting are directly inline with the OPs question.

    As to violent attacks stories of that inclusive of legal and societal results and strain have been posted here as well including two by me in recent times past.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Since I have and probably will continue to state where I stand on the issue of defensive shooting not related to me or my immediate family etc. I will weigh in on this.

    Living in Texas I feel that I probably do look at things a bit broader than many on this forum, and am glad that I am able to. I understand that others have factors that make things difficult in certain situations to intervene. That is too bad in my view.

    As far as Janq's reference to Mr. Horn, well that is one case that I believe is still out. That being said, I am not so sure how many of us Texans would be willing to go to the lengths that Mr. Horn did in that case. I don't know if I could shoot someone for stealing my neighbors TV or whatever. Probably not. However, if you trying to steal my TV, and are in my house, your most likely going to eat some lead.

    There have been several threads lately that to me are no brainers. The gal getting her head beat in with a hammer, the gal being stabbed in the neck with a guy sitting on her. Not just because they are women, but the clear (in my view) fact that a crime, that is justified under Texas law, for defense of another is being committed. However, surprisingly, Janq and I agreed on the thread about the guy being followed into the parking lot by the road rager and gettting out with pistol in hand, sorry don't remember his name. But as others said there was nothing better to do, we were of the same mind that you could stay in your car, and use other options, besides shooting a guy for being an ass.

    I am not so sure that there will be a break in sides on this forum so much as to what state you live in, although that will play some part, but the fact of where you were brought up. What I mean by that is, if you were brought up on a more rural setting, your actions may be different from those that are brought up on an urban area, or the dog eat dog world of the big city. However you want to portrait it.

    There are no easy answers when it comes to these descisions. We are after all talking about the possibility of taking another human beings life. If the answers were easy we would be on a forum called wack your neighbor or something other than Defensive Carry. By the way I am glad the it is no longer Combat Carry, that just seemed to sound wrong for some reason, no offense Bumper. I am glad that I participate in this forum, simply because I get to see other people's points of view. Not that we agree on all aspects, but simply that there are other reasonable people out there that would be willing or unwilling to act in a manner similar to that we would.

    So, here is a question. Who is going to plan the first Defensive Carry BBQ? I figure Pitmaster would be the cook and we could all get together and meet, have some good food and find out just how alike or vastly different we really are.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    For me, as a native Texan, i applaud the changes in the laws regarding lethal force. yes, things are different here in TX, and it amazes me how diverse the views are from state to state. One thing is certain for me though, even if the laws heavily favor me in a confrontation on or off of my property, I still behave as though there is a lawyer attached to every bullet that leaves my weapon through the end of the barrel. The attorney I contacted to represent me if such a thing were ever to happen still sends me his card with his personal cell phone number on it for a paltry $50 per year.

    That grants me the right to call him 24/7 in the event the weapon comes out and is used to apply lethal force to protect me or my loved ones. The fee is just a formality to prove that I have actually retained him as my legal counsel.

    So no matter what the laws are in my state, the lawyer still stands between me and law enforcement until everything gets sorted out, no matter how "clean" the shoot may appear, regardless of who tells me that it is.

    I just pray that all of the liberals dont move here after they have finished ruining their own states......
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    edr, I think that's something we should all do...have a lawyer atatched to every bullet...But I do think that would slow the bullet down to much, so I guess I would say that there is a possibility of a human life, a widow, and/or orphan that goes with every bullet I might be forced to fire. It is not something I take lightly, and I didn't mean to imply that I was of the Shoot first, ask questions later, let God sort 'em out kind of mentality. It was just that some situations that I would almost unquestionably get involved with, I noticed that some said they would be a good witness.
    I think you might me right about the rural vs non-rural upbringing. I grew up in the boonies where I don't think I saw my first truck without a rifle or shotgun rack until I was 16. In the parking lot of our H.S. almost every vehicle had some sort of weapon in it. It was pretty common place. I think somebody said an "Armed society is a polite society"...maybe that was it. I do remember when I was 16, I saw a guy slapping a woman around in a parking lot. That was broken up in short order by about 6 men that saw it and he was held until the police got there. Nobody used a gun or any kind of weapon. We didn't have to.
    I do not advocate a shooting in all circumstances. I don't advocate shooting in any circumstance and hopefully I'll never have to. There are other ways of stopping BG's, but at some point in time, the people/sheep, whatever, have to stand up for ourselves and let the BG's know that they don't run the street, and that no matter what the Gov't wants to label them as, there are still consequences for the actions that you take. (And I accept that there are consequences for every action made, whether it is made in good faith, or malicious). We have to live in this society. My kids will have to grow up in it. My grandkids will have to walk the streets. There comes a time when we have to decide who the streets belong to. And unfortunately, with the hands off, submit, give 'em whatever they want, and hopefully they'll go away mentality a lot of states are coming to, I don't know who is going to win.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  7. #22
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    And unfortunately, with the hands off, submit, give 'em whatever they want, and hopefully they'll go away mentality a lot of states are coming to, I don't know who is going to win.
    The BG's have already won, we just get to win a skirmish every now and then.

    Yes, where and how you are raised will play a big factor in your decisions. I too was raised in an environment similar to your's. The only problem is, I now live and work in the "City". At "home" I didn't lock the door to the house, it was unlocked 24/7 for over twenty years. Here, in the City, I lock it even when I'm in the house.

    I wish things were like they used to be, but they never will be. I have to deal with the reality of the situation I'm in, not how I'd like it to be. I think it has something to do with "Head In The Sand Syndrome", and my not wanting to be afflicted with that disorder.

    Calling 911, being a witness, and such is about all I'm willing to do off duty, unless the actions of the criminal actor are affecting me and mine or an "identified" LEO. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Society has made me this way, and it does go against what I believe, but I believe I need a paycheck more.

    I'm not trying to "hijack" your thread, just giving you another viewpoint. Things are different in every different jurisdiction, I'm sorry to say. In some ways this is good, but there is no "uniformity". Bear in mind, "Local law is what the proscecutor says it is!" If you get a new prosecutor you may find that you can't be as willing to help as you are now.

    Take care, stay safe and come home at the end of shift.

    Biker

  8. #23
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    Tx law prevents civil lawsuits in a good shoot. I'm not worried about Johny's mother, or Johny
    Well, you should be. The key words in preventing the civil lawsuit are "good shoot" and, again, that will all too often depend upon the view of the local prosecutor. That may be unfair, but that is the legal environment we are dealing with.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    BerneyG,
    I do think geography has lot to do with it. I grew up in the Peoples Republic of Maryland and escaped to Texas a little over a year ago. I understand from previous posts that Janq lived at least for a while in the next county over from me. He and I seem to agree on the majority of stuff I see here on the board. He tends to be much more eloquent than I am, perhaps he can expand on this a bit, or tell if things were different in his neighborhood.

    The overall mindset and indoctrination in the Washington D.C. metro area is completely different from what I have found here in Texas. As I told some of my old coworkers when I was house hunting here, Texas might as well be on a different planet! While working for the county police back there I took 9-1-1 calls for out of control two year olds, eight year olds that wouldn't get out of bed to go to school, and "child abuse" where a parent swatted their kid on the butt (one time, open handed) for misbehaving in a grocery store!
    The predominant message I was given throughout my school years was if you see something bad happen, go tell an adult. In the later years it became call the police. "Getting involved" meant saying you were willing to speak to the responding officer, or leaving your information so a detective could contact you later. But for a person to actually get physically involved in someone elses fight was pretty much a thing of the past by the time we hit junior high school.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Well, you should be. The key words in preventing the civil lawsuit are "good shoot" and, again, that will all too often depend upon the view of the local prosecutor. That may be unfair, but that is the legal environment we are dealing with.

    Ron
    What I meant was that I'm not worried about johny, or his mother, and that his mother should of kept johny from becoming a criminal. There are consequences for peoples actions. Whether it be 6 months probation, a lengthy trial, or a BG getting shot at because he thinks his 'victim' will just lie down and play dead while the BG does whatever he wants. What is happening to this country? There was a thread a few days back where they talked about if they would give their wallet to somebody who threatened them...a lot of people said the $20 they keep in their wallet wasn't worth somebody's life...somebody else said..."Well, Of course you carry a drop wallet, right?"...That's absurd. I will not alter my life by carrying a 'here, take it, wallet, just don't hurt me', just because some BG wants to feel tough, get money w/out working for it, or any other reason the punk wants to give. I'm not giving my wallet to somebody because he wants it...
    1. because its wrong
    2. call it a pride issue if you want
    3. people like that need to be stood up to, often that's all it takes
    4. society has let thugs like that get away with to many things to begin with
    5. they are probably already stealing from me in the form of welfare
    6. they might hurt somebody later
    7. Most importantly, they might hurt me after I submit so there will be no witnesses

    We can't let the thugs, gang bangers, and punks run our society...
    We can't run scared, because they will do what they want
    We can't be a 'good witness', because our justice system is jacked, and you have GG's getting sentenced for years for shooting scum(ref. border patrol shooting), and BG's walking with a few months probation, which they won't abide by anyway
    We can't submit and hope they don't hurt us, because BG's have this funny thing about not liking witnesses to identify them.
    The only legal system we have is a threat based legal system. If you do this, we'll do this. If you kill somebody, we might put you to death. If you steal this, you will go on probation....etc, etc, etc. Our legal system is supposed to be a deterrent. It is not based on stopping illegal actionsin progress, but threating people with what we will do if they get caught. The operative phrase there, being 'when they get caught', if some thug is trying to steal my TV or wallet, or whatever he has already made it up in his mind that he doesn't think he will get caught. In his opinion, he is outside of the legal system. People like that have to be taught there are consequences for their actions, and submitting, being a good witness, and hoping the big bad guy leaves us poor little sheep alone isn't the right answer.
    Look, I hate the mall-ninja mentality, I don't think we should go out and save the world, But who is going to?
    Last edited by Kerbouchard; January 30th, 2008 at 04:23 PM. Reason: re-read my earlier post...ron was right.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  11. #26
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerneyG View Post
    That's kind of ridiculous, you can at least point out the fact that you cut my quote off at mid sentence. What I said was that I'm not worried about johny, or his mother, and that his mother should of kept johny from becoming a criminal. There are consequences for peoples actions. Whether it be 6 months probation, a lengthy trial, or a BG getting shot at because he thinks his 'victim' will just lie down and play dead while the BG does whatever he wants. What is happening to this country? There was a thread a few days back where they talked about if they would give their wallet to somebody who threatened them...a lot of people said the $20 they keep in their wallet wasn't worth somebody's life...somebody else said..."Well, Of course you carry a drop wallet, right?"...That's absurd. I will not alter my life by carrying a 'here, take it, wallet, just don't hurt me', just because some BG wants to feel tough, get money w/out working for it, or any other reason the punk wants to give. I'm not giving my wallet to somebody because he wants it...
    1. because its wrong
    2. call it a pride issue if you want
    3. people like that need to be stood up to, often that's all it takes
    4. society has let thugs like that get away with to many things to begin with
    5. they are probably already stealing from me in the form of welfare
    6. they might hurt somebody later
    7. Most importantly, they might hurt me after I submit so there will be no witnesses

    We can't let the thugs, gang bangers, and punks run our society...
    We can't run scared, because they will do what they want
    We can't be a 'good witness', because our justice system is jacked, and you have GG's getting sentenced for years for shooting scum(ref. border patrol shooting), and BG's walking with a few months probation, which they won't abide by anyway
    We can't submit and hope they don't hurt us, because BG's have this funny thing about not liking witnesses to identify them.
    The only legal system we have is a threat based legal system. If you do this, we'll do this. If you kill somebody, we might put you to death. If you steal this, you will go on probation....etc, etc, etc. Our legal system is supposed to be a deterrent. It is not based on stopping illegal actionsin progress, but threating people with what we will do if they get caught. The operative phrase there, being 'when they get caught', if some thug is trying to steal my TV or wallet, or whatever he has already made it up in his mind that he doesn't think he will get caught. In his opinion, he is outside of the legal system. People like that have to be taught there are consequences for their actions, and submitting, being a good witness, and hoping the big bad guy leaves us poor little sheep alone isn't the right answer.
    Look, I hate the mall-ninja mentality, I don't think we should go out and save the world, But who is going to?
    Berney, I apologize for not quoting your entire post. But, the point still remains that, whether we like it or not, we are faced with the threat of a financially devastating law suit, even in a "good shoot." I am not necessarily suggesting that we run and hide and let the thugs take over society. Only that, before we act, we be fully aware of all of the potential consequences of our actions. That is the entire point of my post, which IMO, is perfectly reasonable.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    To All: I meant no offense in my earlier post, to clarify what I was saying:

    When I pull that weapon out, we are already past the talking part. If it is coming out, the BG has run out of time and choices. I am merley trying to send defective merchandise (the BG) back to the factory (GOD, ALLAH, etc) at that point.

    My statements regarding the "Lawyer attached to every bullet" is actually a term I borrowed while attending a friends' class being taught at Thunder ranch back in 1995, and it has stuck with me ever since.

    The Instructors name is Clint Smith.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    EDR, No offense taken here, I think it's pretty good advice. There are a million things that should go through your mind before you ever pull the trigger. I just don't think the fact that there could be a lawsuit should be one of them...Hence the topic of this thread. The path of the bullet, the back stop, and whether there is any other way possible to neutralize the threat short of deadly force are among the top ones on my list. I think there are too many people out there with common sense for me to really worry about whether some BG's mom wants to sue me because I was forced to shoot said BG when he tried to mug me, kill me, etc. I actually don't believe I would hire an attorney if that happened. If the state wouldn't provide one for me(which they won't beause I couldn't meet the requirements), I would represent myself.
    My Defense: I was threatened. I feared for my life. I was forced to stop the threat. Here is a copy of the applicable laws. Defense rests. Sits down with tear in eyes. ;-)
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  14. #29
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    Good luck and God speed with that, Berney... I'm lawyering up immediately.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    opfor, I didn't say it was a good plan. But, referring back to the title of this thread...I think it's more of a pipe dream than a nightmare. I figure the chances of me ever having to use my CW is very low, and the chances of it being a questionable shoot are even lower.
    And to tell you the truth, even in a questionable shoot, the odds of going to trial are almost nil. Joe Horn's shoot is about as questinable as it can get, and the Grand Jury has had his case for over a month and still hasn't indicted him...It's going to be a no-bill. I bet nobody is going to break into any homes on that block in the near future.

    And, I'm not saying his life is going well. It's pretty much destroyed, he's getting death threats, he is staying out of town, I don't know if he had a job, but he probably doesn't have one anymore...But he is not going to go to trial.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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    Who is John Galt?

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