Mall Shooting

This is a discussion on Mall Shooting within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's a scenario for you. Bear in mind I'm looking at this from an "off duty" standpoint for the LEO's. This actually happened and the ...

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Thread: Mall Shooting

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Mall Shooting

    Here's a scenario for you. Bear in mind I'm looking at this from an "off duty" standpoint for the LEO's. This actually happened and the Training Officer for my Agency and I had a "discussion" about this.

    Inside the food court 3 young males arguing. 2 males start "grappeling with the third. One pulls a gun, 2 shots fired then 2 "beat feet" out of the mall while one lays on the floor groaning and wimpering. The 2 that run out of the mall ditch the gun under a car and proceed to another car and "fly" out of the parking lot and disappear in to traffic.

    OK, you're in the food court eating, family is with you. What do you do?

    This is taken from an actual scenario. My response is really simple. Take family to cover, call 911 and ensure our safety.

    I do not follow, attempt to apprehend or any other such LEO action, and be a good witness. If I knew where the gun was "ditched' I would not touch it, but have someone, if not myself, guard it so the local LEO's can retreive the weapon.

    The training officer was thinking along the lines of attempting to stop them and pulling his weapon. I asked him, why? In short, "It's just an automatic response." After we talked about it he saw my viewpoint. Lets say the 2 in the Mall didn't want to stop when you commanded them to. What if they turn and fire at you? You just went from a 2shot fight with bullets going in one direction to a multi directional firefight.

    Now, the T.O; if he acts as he initially wanted to has opened himself up to a huge bucketload of "vicarious liability". "No actions taken off duty will be considered within the scope of employment." That comes straight from the "legal beagle" at my agency.

    So my question, besides what would you do is, what preparations have you made in case you are charged with a crime, sued, wounded or killed?

    Biker

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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    ...
    Now, the T.O; if he acts as he initially wanted to has opened himself up to a huge bucketload of "vicarious liability". "No actions taken off duty will be considered within the scope of employment." That comes straight from the "legal beagle" at my agency. ...
    So your agency will not consider actions off duty part of employment. Do they require off-duty carry? or any other requirements for off-duty?

    That sure would take the wind out of the sails of most people dedicated to helping.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Don't know exactly how off duty LEO should respond but as a civillian I know that pursuing fleeing suspects is foolish both tactically and legally. I've done it before but will not do it again. A month or so ago there was a discussion on this forum about a guy who pursued a purse snatcher up a dark street. I thought the action was quite foolish but surprisingly there was quite a bit of support for it on the forum. Not this old boy.

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    Distinguished Member Array USPnTX's Avatar
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    I think being prepared comes in various forms. The following are in no particular order - due to the fact they are all of equal importance IMHO. Obviously, being well-versed in your local laws and restrictions. Secondly, one must be well-trained with their carry weapon as well as understanding the importance of tactics. The last part is what I call the CYA tactic - have a good lawyer. The time to go looking for a good attorney is when you don't need one not when you are staring down the barrel of a grand jury. You should put as much research into finding a good attorney as you put into selecting your EDC.
    "Do not fear those who disagree with you; fear those that do and are too cowardly to admit it" - Napoleon

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    In the presented situation, the action (as it were) is over already. No need for any intervention from me as an armed civilian.

    Chasing the perps is absolutely out of the question - I have neither the lawful authority nor the duty to do so.

    If I am satisfied that the BGs have left, I'll render medical aid to the one shot, and verify that there are not more shot. Call 911 with info/descriptions, provide a witness statement to the responding officers.

    Matt
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    Member Array Troy Price's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post

    So my question, besides what would you do is, what preparations have you made in case you are charged with a crime, sued, wounded or killed?

    Biker
    An my answer, besides the answer to what I would do, is:

    1. Know a good lawyer
    2. Same as One
    3. Take a combat lifesaver/"gunfigter medical" couse that deals specificall ywith traumatic injuries cause by knives and guns.
    4. Have a good life insurance policy and a will.

    Many folks don't like to think of the possibilities but if you're going to carry a gun you have to think about the possibilities and plan for them.
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    Senior Member Array Paladin132's Avatar
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    Break contact with family and stay out of it, offer a statement to the officers that respond, other than that heck you can get in trouble too many places nowdays for stopping the bleeding.

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    Senior Member Array walvord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    My response is really simple. Take family to cover, call 911 and ensure our safety.:
    This is what I would do also.

    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    So my question, besides what would you do is, what preparations have you made in case you are charged with a crime, sued, wounded or killed?
    First, it would be good to know or already have a good lawyer on the speed dial. Second, I believe the NRA has a policy that you can purchase for this very event, and third - make sure your family trust is up to date. I've done one out of three of these and need to get busy with the other two. Oh, and have health insurance for the "wounded" part.
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    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
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    I believe the Florida statues are now as they were when I was in: sworn officers/deputies are, by statute, on-duty 24/7. Best to check with local laws first, but if you aren't covered off-duty does that mean you can't effect an arrest while off-duty?
    Tim
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    if you aren't covered off-duty does that mean you can't effect an arrest while off-duty?
    That's exactly what it means,

    We can carry 24/7, but off duty we are on our own.

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    Senior Member Array Natureboypkr's Avatar
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    make sure my family is ok for starters, then contact other LEOs
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    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    our dept. states you are 24/7 in your jurisdiction.

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    Senior Member Array Knuckledrager's Avatar
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    Was this in your primary jurisdiction? What does your state say about duty to act?
    "The liberty of the individual is no gift of civilization. It was greatest before there was any civilization." Sigmund Freud

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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    That's exactly what it means,

    We can carry 24/7, but off duty we are on our own.
    That is pretty clear to me. Your management chain has a policy in
    effect that spells out the consequences of you taking police type actions while off the clock. They have, in their wisdom, weighed the pros/cons of supporting you and your actions while you are off the clock. And they have decided that the cons outweigh the pros. Mgt. may want this to be an asymmetric relationship (where you take the risks without their support), but in reality it is in your best interest to keep the relationship symmetric.

    Why go against the the directives of management. If you do, you most likely will be left hanging (unless they can take credit for your stellar actions). When off the clock, take care of you and yours and be a good witness for those on the clock. The only exception I could fathom would be if you saw one of your co-workers in trouble.

    Good luck in your decision.

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