Hypothetical situation,.....Food For Thought !

[SMSTRICK]

I was having a conversation with a friend of mine recently and we were discussing the 2nd Amendment, The Patriot Act, civil liberties , etc. As we got into the discussion, we thought of a hypothetical situation which stumped us.
Lets say that a citizen is living in a "Castle Doctrine " state,...shoots and kills a intruder because the homeowner fears for his or her life....Now,...lets say that the intruder is a FBI agent who is entering the home under the assumption that no one is present, to serve a self written search warrant to investigate the person even though no law had been previously broken.
What is bound to happen ? What happens when a death resulting in a self written search warrant crosses the Castle Doctrine and the right of a law abiding citizen to defend their life while on their property ?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Ram Rod]

That is a good question. I don't have an answer for that, I'd say it would be a terrible tragedy, but I'd like to touch on something--you know---technically, nobody in this country actually 'owns' any real property--the government owns everything. We merely pay taxes to continue 'renting' property from them. Say for instance-if you owe two years back property taxes---or income taxes for that matter--is it really 'your castle, or the feds? We also know the county owns the soil underneath your house--you rent that too. All in all, I guess that federal law supersedes any state laws. BTW--a "self written search warrant" is a new term to me.

[Sticks]

All I know about the Patriot Act is that it is bad JuJu.

Do you have any official documentation to support the "Self Written" search warrant? That is a new one on me as well.

I agree, that is a tough situation to figure, it goes along the lines of a no-knock warrant at O dark 30. (Not trying to change the topic to a no knock thread!!!)

[mojave_pistolero]

I don't know but I think that Castle Doctrine or not the Feds would try to crucify him. Also where is the agent's backup? They will probably provide a different version of what transpired. BTW If the agent presumes no one is home why would he enter to "serve a self written search warrant"?
Interesting hypothetical even though I would hope said citizen would shout out in hopes of Identifying target prior to shooting. (Avoid killing a well intentioned relative) Anyway like I said very interesting would love to see what others have to say.

[LastManOut]

That is a good question. I don't have an answer for that, I'd say it would be a terrible tragedy, but I'd like to touch on something--you know---technically, nobody in this country actually 'owns' any real property--the government owns everything. We merely pay taxes to continue 'renting' property from them. Say for instance-if you owe two years back property taxes---or income taxes for that matter--is it really 'your castle, or the feds? We also know the county owns the soil underneath your house--you rent that too. All in all, I guess that federal law supersedes any state laws. BTW--a "self written search warrant" is a new term to me.

That's a queer technicality most people do not know. If I may make a correction, as I understand it, since the individual paid the sales tax on the "building" he owns that, but the landowner does NOT have allodial title to the property underneath.

[Rock and Glock]

.......but I'd like to touch on something--you know---technically, nobody in this country actually 'owns' any real property--the government owns everything. We merely pay taxes to continue 'renting' property from them. Say for instance-if you owe two years back property taxes---or income taxes for that matter--is it really 'your castle, or the feds? We also know the county owns the soil underneath your house--you rent that too........

Please explain.....I've never heard of this theory, and I thought there were several hundred years worth of statutes and case law regarding ownership of real estate?

That's a queer technicality most people do not know. If I may make a correction, as I understand it, since the individual paid the sales tax on the "building" he owns that, but the landowner does NOT have allodial title to the property underneath.

Can I be educated here? Not trying to be a smart guy.


Regardless of the real estate ownership questions, I think the hypothetical situation presented would be problematic at best, and probably result in a semi-load of legal bills and an orange jumpsuit at worst.

A good reason to have a secure and hardened perimeter.

[walvord]

IMHO the government most usually always wins. Putting logic into this situation is like putting the words "military" and "intelligence" together. I'm thinking the homeowner is going to be charged with a crime of some sort and go to jail or have his bank account emptied or both. Again, IMHO the Castle Doctrine is there for protection against thugs, murderers, rapist, et. al. and not LEO be them FBI, BATFE, or any other alphabet agency enforcing laws. It just won't be good either way.

[Supertac45]

He wouldn't be entering by himself.

[LastManOut]

Here in Pennsylvania, William Penn was given a grant of land by the king (? Numbnutz the II), all land then is transferred by Fee Certain, not what is called Allodial Title (title free and clear to the land).
This is why municipalities are allowed to tax and regulate with zoning, building codes.

The same thing applies to your vehicle. You have a Certificate of Title, not the Title. When the vehicle is built a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (?) is issued to that vehicle, a title. That is transferred to the state from the new car dealer and you get the CoT.

Google it, for more info. I just learned of this recently as well.

[LastManOut]

Here is where I learned of Allodial Title http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

[goawayfarm]

See what happens when you let lawyers make the rules!!!!!!

[Ram Rod]

See? That's why I like hangin' with y'all. Get more real world education! Remember---the government relies on folks NOT knowing the rather obscure laws---this way, they almost always have a wild card to throw out when the chips are down. Confusion among the masses is in their best interest. Okay---sorry for interrupting.

[morintp]

Please explain.....I've never heard of this theory, and I thought there were several hundred years worth of statutes and case law regarding ownership of real estate?



Can I be educated here? Not trying to be a smart guy.

Here's a good page that explains property rights. I have it set to go to the Allodial vs Feudal section which explains it pretty well. It also explains eminent domain, condemnation and other ways to lose your property. I noticed it mentioned Nevada is trying something where you can purchase allodial rights to your property by paying a percentage of the future taxes. I bet that's one heck of a bill.

Eminent domain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ridurall]

"Self written search warrant" sounds like something out of John Ross's book Unintended Consequences. Remember how those agents ended up trying to serve signed unwritten warrants. That is why I've got my lawyer on speed dial. Just in case. Hope I never have to use him.

[USA Pugilist]

You shot an FBI agent! Unless you have the News crew there to document everything your pretty much out-of-gas, as the street lingo goes. And you have to hope that the footage gets to the station without it being mysteriously intercepted. Nothing good can come out from shooting that type of goverment employee. Nothing.