How to properly shoot two muggers :)

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Thread: How to properly shoot two muggers :)

  1. #16
    Member Array JustinM's Avatar
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    ArmyCop
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    "There are more things on this planet with fangs, claws, poisons, and scales, than there are things that are warm, fuzzy, and full of love. It's just a simple fact." - James Keating

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  3. #17
    Member Array ghost10750's Avatar
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    Alot of force on force training involves the exact movements made by Cruise in this clip.

    You can easily practice this by setting up 2 targets about 2 yards apart and use a weak hand block to the top of the first target. This is actually a good senario to practice since it is a real possibility it could go down this exact way. I also noticed that the first BG had made the error of holding his weapon sideways like the gangbangers think is cool. It actually can work in your favor if you can strike his arm as he can't recover to be on target if he doesn't get a shot off before you strike his arm.
    A superior combat handgunner is best defined as one who uses his superior judgement to avoid situations requiring the use of his superior skills.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin
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    Got it. Thanks...
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  5. #19
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex
    True, but it seems to me that the same thing could be said about any gun disarm. If the attacker knows what he's doing, you're not going to get the opportunity.
    Not necessarily. Had the attacker not been doin a "deer in the headlights" routine in response to Cruise's attack, he would have pulled the trigger as soon as he was back on target. If I were lucky enought to have my attacker make a mistake that gave me such an easy disarm, I don't think I would have bet my life on him making a second one (especially if I were someone like Cruise's character - a very accomplished professional killer). Had Cruise retained control of the gun arm, BG1 wouldn't have been able to get the gun back on him before he got his gun out. Also, he could have stepped toward BG1's right in order to get BG1 between him and BG2 and, when he did start shooting, he wouldn't have had to turn almost 90 degrees to get a shot on BG2. (But I don't think that would have been as dramatic. It might have been perceived by the audience as a "Use the Force, Luke" situation, rather than a very proficient killer.)

    Cruise couldn't have gone for a complete disarm, because he had to deal with BG2. He couldn't be sure of using BG1's gun because he wouldn't have had a firing grip on it. He would have had to readjust his grip and by that time BG2 could have been on top of him (along with BG1) or BG2 could have had his gun out while BG1 was still on top of him (and he would have had to relinquish control of BG1's arm in order to readjust the grip)

    As for the second BG, he just stood there trying to get his gun (probably had a Smart Carry holster). His choice of actions would have been to either take off and hope that Cruise would let him go because the attack was no longer on and Cruise got his case back, or immediately rush in and tackle cruise while he was dealing with BG1.

    I've often thought that the only reason Bernie Goetz was successful in his self defense action is because his four attackers had no plan for dealing with someone with a gun (Why should they; it was NYC?). Had they planned to all rush in the instant they saw a gun, two of them, at most, would have been shot and the other two could have taken Goetz apart like pulling the wings and legs of a fly.
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  6. #20
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    I know it is just a movie......
    The BG's were in a clear disadvantage, they just did not knew it. The Combat Triad (some call it the Trinity Principles) consists of three elements: Mindset, Marksmanship, and Gun Handling. The Bad Guy's mindset at that time was not to shoot TC but to rob him. TC was solely focused on popping the BG's. The BG's were expecting a meek victim that was suppossed to give up, be peaceful and beg for mercy but instead they found a predator on the attack. That basically overloaded the BG's brain with a new set of information that did not have time to digest and act upon until it was too late. TC's Marksmanship and Gun Handling were correct and thus he came out the winner against to BG's
    Action will always beat reaction. That is why we talk about and try to be AWARE of our surroundings to lessen the chance of being caught by surprise.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Sometimes....truth is stranger than fiction...

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy
    I know it is just a movie......
    The BG's were in a clear disadvantage, they just did not knew it. The Combat Triad (some call it the Trinity Principles) consists of three elements: Mindset, Marksmanship, and Gun Handling. The Bad Guy's mindset at that time was not to shoot TC but to rob him. TC was solely focused on popping the BG's. The BG's were expecting a meek victim that was suppossed to give up, be peaceful and beg for mercy but instead they found a predator on the attack. That basically overloaded the BG's brain with a new set of information that did not have time to digest and act upon until it was too late. TC's Marksmanship and Gun Handling were correct and thus he came out the winner against to BG's
    Action will always beat reaction. That is why we talk about and try to be AWARE of our surroundings to lessen the chance of being caught by surprise.
    VERY well said! I agree completely. Just to add my .02:

    In such a disarm situation, there are essentially two ways to sweep the gun hand: To the outside. This would have the consequence of drawing you even closer to the attacker but is more easily countered by a backward step by the BG to regain the advantage. OR to the INSIDE which PINS the arm of the BG across his own body and essentially fixes him in place. This seems to be the choice of TC in the clip, however, he is unable to secure the true pin because he still has to deal with BG#2. When I saw this movie, I had to think to myself that there is NO way that antigun TC would be THIS smooth with a handgun. Then I saw "The Making Of Collateral" and I understood. In any case, either sweep is effective and neither puts you in any MORE jeopardy from a gunshot, assuming the BG is already in proximity to you and his weapon is COM to your person. Most predators are pretty much unprepared for an active and violent defense by their "victim" and I speak from the view of a former parole officer who got the word straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. IOW most wolves expect their victims to be SHEEP and not SHEEPDOGS.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    There is a bit of anatomy thought on that movement. When you sweep outside, the BG can bring the gun back faster than if you sweep it inside. The reason is the muscles involved in returning the arm to its original place. With the inside sweep it is the triceps which is much less developed and used than the biceps and the time to recover to a normal position is longer than with an outside sweep.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  9. #23
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    Good point Miggy - tho I'd add too that not only is Biceps the stronger of two compared with triceps but - an across move has great strength too because of Pectoralis.

    Tho a climbing muscle it does too exert good power towards median line.
    Chris - P95
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  10. #24
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    When you sweep outside, the BG can bring the gun back faster than if you sweep it inside.
    Which is inside and which is outside. Which was used in this video clip?
    Last edited by grnzbra; September 10th, 2005 at 12:34 AM. Reason: missed quotation marks
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  11. #25
    Member Array Shotgun Willie's Avatar
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    what is an OODA loop?
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  12. #26
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    Observation Orientation Decision Action,



    The OODA loop applies to any two-sided conflict, whether the antagonists are individuals in hand-to-hand combat or large military formations. OODA is an acronym for observation-orientation-decision-action, which describes the basic sequence of the command and control process. (See figure 2.) When engaged in conflict, we first observe the situation—that is, we take in information about our own status, our surroundings, and our enemy. Sometimes we actively seek the information; sometimes it is thrust upon us. Having observed the situation, we next orient to it—we make certain estimates, assumptions, analyses, and judgments about the situation in order to create a cohesive mental image. In other words, we try to figure out what the situation means to us. Based on our orientation, we decide what to do—whether that decision takes the form of an immediate reaction or a deliberate plan. Then we put the decision into action. This includes disseminating the decision, supervising to ensure proper execution, and monitoring results through feedback, which takes us full circle to the observation phase. Having acted, we have changed the situation, and so the cycle begins again. It is worth noting that, in any organization with multiple decision makers, multiple OODA loops spin simultaneously, although not necessarily at the same speed, as commanders exercise command and control at their own level and locale.
    Stolen from the Maxwell-Gunter AFB website
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  13. #27
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    grnzbra - Cruise slams BG's right arm to inside (with his left) - which is probably the better choice IMO.

    Watching the clip again - I wonder how many takes it took to get that fast and fluid flow - it's impressive.
    Chris - P95
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    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  14. #28
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin
    ArmyCop
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    Thanks...that is a motivator!
    "An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
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  15. #29
    Member Array Shotgun Willie's Avatar
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    Thanks Miggy. That helps me make more sense of this thread.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Watching the clip again - I wonder how many takes it took to get that fast and fluid flow - it's impressive.
    If you watch the "Making of Collateral" that ExSoldier mentioned, you will hear his trainer (I forget the guys name but he is no slouch) said Cruise picked up the training very well. The clips of the training were impressive, especially for a Hollywood type. If you have the CD, be sure and watch the "Making Of" part.
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