February 7th, 2008 07:50 PM
my bug lives right on top of my money clip (don't carry a back pocket wallet)
When I pull the wallet out of my front pocket, the bug will come out with it. 2 COM (as close as I can get weak handed) to the gun BG then I'm going to basically charge right through him to the nearest cover while drawing my 1911.
The 2 knife BGs are going to have to react to me shooting their "gun man" If they come after me, they'll get 230 grain HSTs..if they run..they run.
The BG with the 2 or 3 .380 holes in him will be covered with the 1911 until the good guys show.
If he tries to get back into the fight...so will I.
As far as having a empty chamber...only after I visit with the easter bunny and santa in a safe gun free zone :-)
no gun...toss the wallet and charge him screaming like a madman in order to throw him off, then (unfortunately) I'm going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
February 7th, 2008 08:03 PM
I've been in some form of martial arts for about 40 yrs (I'm that old?!?), and whether it's sparring with or without weapons against multiple opponents, one basic tactic always prevails: try to find the weakest/least threat, and hide behind that one from the rest of the team. In sparring, sometimes you don't even want to defeat him/her because you'd lose your shield - just hold him/her at bay.
With that in mind, let's analyze this situation:
There's only one way to get out - over something. Given the options (Clockwise: 1 guy w/gun, vehicle, 2 guys w/blades, or vehicle # 2), the fastest exit I can see is to go over the guy with the gun. That's the direction least expected by them (remember OODA?), thus the option that they are likely to comprehend and respond the slowest to. Might even scare the $#!+ out of them, and they'll leave ("D@mned crazy FOOL!"). You'd have a better chance trampling him than trying to wedge between two guys with blades, and if you went over a vehicle you'd land between them again - if you didn't get shot and/or grabbed and dragged down to . . ??. If you go through the punk with the gun, the others can't reach you past him. A 90-lb woman in heels can knock down a 200-lb thug if she hits hard, fast, and totally by surprise. Then draw, while he's momentarily confused. If you're lucky, he might even lose his gun if your attack is ferocious enough. Don't try to disarm the two with knives unless your name is Segal. Even then, as you are nonchalantly spreading whoop-@ss on the two, the first one will, with equal aplomb, shoot you from a safe distance. At the ranges you describe, gun or knife are equally deadly; play the lowest odds by taking out the one you can't outrun.
Part 2: No. Just - no.
Part 3: The gun is a moot point. In the car, in the gun safe, in your other pants, - moot.
Good mental exercise, thanks.
February 7th, 2008 10:37 PM
In the scenario you present, it sounds like you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
Why is not having a gun a moot point? One cannot carry a gun everywhere they go!
Part 3: The gun is a moot point. In the car, in the gun safe, in your other pants, - moot.
Good for those who said that point #2 would not happen.
February 7th, 2008 10:39 PM
Awareness can prevent 90% of things from happening... BUT... NOT EVERYTHING! This happens to be one of those times!
I also wanted to add, the only way you'd get into this situation is by a lack of situational awareness.
If I remember correctly, I did say that they may have been hiding. You can't just draw down on someone who magically appears.
February 7th, 2008 11:19 PM
The gun, being inaccessible in the locked car, is a moot point. If you distract yourself by thinking about the gun in you car, at home, not in your reach for whatever reason, you're not focused on your present situation. It's non-productive, a moot point. Not worth wishing after when you already have a platefull.
Originally Posted by Brian@ITC
Last edited by Captain Crunch; February 8th, 2008 at 12:56 AM.
Reason: Fixed quote tags
February 8th, 2008 01:49 AM
I think the poster meant that any gun not carried is a moot point in a self-defense situation. If you have time to get into your car and retrieve a gun, I think that goes a little beyond self defense. OMO
Originally Posted by Brian@ITC
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt
February 8th, 2008 02:40 AM
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
February 8th, 2008 07:56 AM
Let's see, a guy with a gun pointed at you 5 feet away and 2 guys behind you with knives 5-6 feet away? Did I read that right? Considering a parking lot is one place you need to be on alert, you just got yourself in one big pickle. Your going to need a lot of luck no matter what you decide. This is one of those situations that people are going to come up with a plan of action but, just like in a fight, the plan lasts until the first punch is thrown. Ok, I'll play.
First of all, I never carry a gun without a round chambered. Second, if a guy comes out of no where in a parking lot, I assume he was hiding behind a car/van. He pops out just in front of me with a gun, I'm going to drill him between the eyes with a .32/.38 that is in my left hand, in my pocket. No gun? At 5 feet, I'm grabbing the gun hand and cutting it up his arm. He wouldn't have time to "ask" for my wallet. Hopefully, the two gentlemen with the knives behind me are not committed and take off running at this point. Either way, they are WAY too close with those knives. I've got to get space/obstacles between us. Gun or no gun, I'm getting past the first guy and getting between the cars. With a gun, I'll shoot the two gentlemen if they are coming. With a knife, I'm where I'd prefer to be, close in and confined and, possibly, with the first guys gun. My odds? With some luck, maybe 50-50.
If they were really just looking to rob someone and didn't expect a fight, it's a bad situation but you have a fair chance. If they are hardcore boogermen intent on killing you, it's a nightmare you'd be lucky to survive and I don't care what kind of games you play at "school".
February 8th, 2008 08:47 AM
Priority 1: SURVIVE!
BG 1 has gun, other two have knives and they are within 9 feet of me.
In practice, with one attacker at 12 feet I can draw from concealment and fire JUST before he reaches me at a run, but that's my min. 11 feet and closer BG reaches me every time but that doesn't mean I don't have options.
I think my option would be faking.
They are expecting my compliance. They are expecting my fear and playing to their expectations just might get me out of that situation alive. My advantage is that they don't want me dead yet. If they wanted me dead they would have shot me and just taken my purse and called it a day. They may decide to kill me later, but right now I have an advantage that I'm only being THREATENED with death and not dead yet.
Things are looking up!
I carry my purse weak side, and depending on the layout, I don't know if I'll be able to just run (I have great endurance when I run but I'm not very fast).
I might fake compliance. I'll curl up on myself, whimpering, considering the man with the gun as my biggest threat at the moment but not wanting the men with the knives to get any closer because they can easily become my primary threats.
With my left hand I'll grab my purse, close to my chest, using it to conceal my draw from my right side. If I'm lucky I'll throw my purse at BG 2 and 3 and simultaneously draw and fire on BG 1 with the gun while stepping to the side to try to ensure that he won't shoot me in his surprise.
Since I know I'm not a fast runner, and again, depending on layout of the parking, I may turn instantly on BG 2 and 3 and do follow up shots.
First shot will probably be point shooting from retention, as well as follow up shots. If I can get to my sights, great. If I can't, there's not much missing at 9 ft and closer. When I scan and assess for potential follow up shots and more threats my gun will probably be up and extended. But point shooting is fine as long as it gets me out of there alive.
As to the question of whether or not I have that much confidence in my skills to perform to that level of intricacy... I believe that I do. I know how I can perform under stress, I also have great confidence in my ability to move and shoot. Furthermore, if I may say so myself, I have great timing in my follow up shots on multiple targets. I also know that I can point shoot pretty darn good at close distances.
At first, with such close proximity of the BGs, It's going to be one bullet per BG, then going back and assessing and adding bullets to 1, 2 and 3 until the threat has ended or until I see the opportunity and run and get away.
Tactical reload (though I've never been GREAT at these) and keep running.
Scenario 2: Never going to happen. If I have my gun on, there's one in the chamber, PERIOD!
Scenario 3: Perhaps I was in a court house or some place that I was not allowed to carry and I had to leave my gun in the car.
Again, Survival is my #1 priority.
If I was in a court house I might not even have my knives, but let's say for this scenario I was some place where a gun was not allowed but my knives were okay and I'm still armed with the knives.
First order of business: Get away from the guy with the gun.
In first scenario I through my purse at BGs 2 and 3, moved and shot BG 1. In this scenario I throw my purse at BG 1, draw my Ka-Bar and any one of my other pocket knives.. one in each hand, run like the dickens, cutting and slashing, bobbing and weaving the entire time.
Do I have confidence in my ability to scream, run, cut and slash? Yeah. I'm pretty confident that I can do that.
February 8th, 2008 09:34 AM
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
February 8th, 2008 09:58 AM
More than likely.
Originally Posted by Supertac45
Lima, please no offense, but if you can draw from concealment and engage an aggressor in a mad rush from 12 feet before he gets ya, your either extremely fast or your training partner is very slow. I have a hard time doing it from 20 feet and I'm not that slow. That lesson stuck with me and is the reason I started carrying an easy access, offhand BUG. In coat/jacket weather, nothing is faster.
Your idea about curling up and whimpering and then coming out shooting is excellent and probably makes more sense than most of the posts I've read so far. It would probably make them overconfidant and give you an element of surprise. Great idea!
February 8th, 2008 10:04 AM
Man…talk about not watching what’s going on around ya; But it could happen to any of us.
While this has never happen to me, I have always played with the idea of pitching the wallet.
Possibly on the ground in front or over the head of BG 1, and as his attention is directed at the wallet.
Draw and fire two rounds in his chest, while walking toward him.
And depending on where he is holding his gun, I may try to grab it, or block it with weak hand while firing one handed.
I would then turn and see if BG 2 & 3 wanted some.
Depending on how much experience they have I would presume that once the shots started BG 2 & 3 will be stunned and just stand there and/or take off.
In ether case, we are only talking about 3 or so seconds from the time, the first shot was fired, and there reaction time, would give me a window of opportunity.
I always have a round in the pipe, and I always carry.
And while I may be 25 years out of practice and shape, I do have black belts in two forms of martial arts, and it funny how all those years of training comes back as almost an instinct when needed.
But, I will add that when the dust settles, I’ll need to find a bathroom to clean my britches out.
February 8th, 2008 10:05 AM
I'm not that slow, at that distance, I'm on her, but she can shoot from retention, we've done the Tueller drill more than a few times, and even if I get on her, she's still able to pop me a couple of times from retention.
Originally Posted by kpw
And that was with her standing stock still, not moving to the rear lateral.
You always see the stereotypical drill done with the gun holder standing stock still making, the draw and going to a full firing stance, I say screw that, stereotypical never happens in real life, forget the full stance, and shoot from a retention position from the hip.
ETA: Also, this is done KNOWING that an attack is immanent, IE you can see the threat and have a good notion that you're going to need to draw. If it's a blindside bum rush when you don't know that there's a threat, the out come is bleak no matter what the distance.
February 8th, 2008 10:14 AM
There are some pretty decent responses here! But, here is my favorite thing so far...
Now that is one of THE BEST things I've ever heard!!!
A golf course is a waste of what could be a perfectly good gun range.
February 8th, 2008 10:35 AM
LOL, I'd hope your not that slow. Must be good to have a training partner at home. I'm not picking on Lima. I think she has a great head on her shoulders and had an excellent idea about cowering and fighting.
I'd hate to think anyone would try to outdraw a guy with a knife from 5-6 feet away, let alone 2 of them behind you. Moving and getting space/obstacles between you is your only chance. If your shooting them as they are on you, it's too late. The idea is to survive and that's going to be hard to do with punctures and lacerations to organs and arteries. Doesn't really matter if you shoot them after the fact. Honestly, up close, knives scare me as much and probably more than guns do. These what if scenarios can be kind of interesting.
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