Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?
This is a discussion on Multiple Threats…What would YOU do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Uuuugg.
Again with the dummy wallet thing.
ANY time I find myself in a situation where I am flanked, I correct that situation. Threat or ...
February 8th, 2008 10:04 PM
Again with the dummy wallet thing.
ANY time I find myself in a situation where I am flanked, I correct that situation. Threat or not, If I have someone blocking my path in front of me and someone is behind me, I am turning sideways and backing up so my back is protected (READ - no one behind me) and I have view of all parties involved. Point a gun at me and threaten all you want, I am still getting everyone in sight.
MEANWHILE, I am playing the part of the scared little sheep. "I don't want any trouble, please don't hurt me, I'm getting my wallet" Moving slowly so as to not alarm them, I am both un-tucking my shirt with my left hand while my right is taking it's time getting to the wallet, now I can hit the go button and point shoot 3 into BG with the gun, turn and see how BG 2 & 3 want to play. This whole paragraph started when I saw #1 and presented my strong side (right) to BG with gun and am backing up getting #'s 2 & 3 in sight on my left.
When my weapon started clearing holster, I started moving towards BG direction insofar as a sideways movement along the car that is at my back, increasing the knife guys distance.
ALWAYS have one in the tube
If I am caught in this situation without a gun, the grim reaper is a lookin' for someone that day, it may be me but I will not go without every intention of bringing at least one of them with me. I am bum-rushing the gun guy knocking his arm away from me, hoping he pops off a round at his boys, doing all the nasty H2H fighting mentioned previously. If I can ring his bell good enough from the onset (say a roundhouse elbow to the head), I am grabbing him from behind in some fashion (hair, around the neck, shirt or coat collar, and using him as a human shield from knife boys, while I am poking him a couple of times with my knife. Earliest opportunity, I am cutting bait and running.
Bad position to be in, and I will count myself lucky and all my karma for this life spent.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
February 8th, 2008 10:42 PM
An aspect that has been largely overlooked here is that most punks are punks because it's easier than working for money. If they were willing to put forth effort or risk, they might as well get a job. So, as soon as they meet resistance, they're often just as scared as the victim is. This is the point where they can really get dangerous. If you choose to resist, be decisive. Shoot him/them before they see your weapon if you draw on them; don't make it an Old West shoot-out contest.
Well the only advantage we would have is that we're armed and fighting back. ... Three really determined bad guys (pros) are going to kill you period. Three amateurs (crack heads) might fold up and run when it turns into a dog fight.
Pros, on the other hand, won't likely give you a chance to resist - they're more likely to be on you (not 5-10 feet away) before they announce their presence. If they're pros, it's because they've figured out (or been taught) how to survive in this career field, and acting like a schoolyard bully gang taking lunch money isn't the way.
As the scenario is written, I get killed just like the rest of us would. I might be able to shoot a few of them before my bullet/knife punctured heart stops beating.
If you've already decided you're defeated, you are. If on the other hand, you decide they're dead, you have a good chance of coming out intact. If they really wanted to kill you, they could just walk up and stick you, then take whatever they want without protest or risk. Resistance could of course alter their intentions, but not before you totally change the dynamics of the scene against their favor. (Here's that OODA loop again!)
Now for a stupid (but true) personal anectdote:
A fellow that disagreed with me once offered to "Blow my Head Off!!!" He was just about stupid enough that I couldn't ignore his threat, and I couldn't be sure he didn't have a gun. I started laughing at him - which made him REALLY mad, with the expected "What're you laughing at, you think I won't?!" response. I told him that we both knew he was a wossey piece of crap, and even as I died I'd know that he'd be someone's - or, everyone's - girlfriend for the rest of his life (in prison), since without a gun he couldn't stand up to a cub scout. After displaying several shades and complections that I'd never seen before, he told me I was too crazy for him to be messing with, and left - permanently. I stole his lead role, and he collapsed. (Later, when it was over, I was so scared I was shaking. I'm no SuperHero, and I'm not suicidal. I just refuse to be owned.)
Never give up.
Always do the unexpected.
February 8th, 2008 11:36 PM
I would charge the gunman while bellowing like a bull and slap the gun to the side while drawing my own G17. Pop as many rounds into his torso as I can while I literally run him over. After clearing the cars, I would turn back and 45 to the rear while scanning for the other threats.
Speed, surprise, violence of action...
February 9th, 2008 12:52 AM
Sounds good. Until they get there, no one will know for sure how they will act.
hecks...the next step towards registration and confiscation.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/
February 9th, 2008 03:33 AM
Considering the biggest problem here seems to be trying to outdraw someone who has the drop on you, I'm surprised no one (maybe I missed it) has talked about distraction with the wallet. Tossing the wallet a bit short and to the side, or a bit far and to the side. With luck, the BG's eyes are drawn to the wallet in flight, giving you a bit better chance to draw, hopefully starting to move sideways yourself. It seems that practice would greatly improve your chances of pulling this off.
Personally, while I think drawing on someone who has the drop on you is likely to be very bad for your health, I suspect if you do manage to drop him the guys who brought knives to the gunfight are fairly likely to disengage, esp. the more authoritatively you resolve that first situation.
In general, it seems like movement is key here. Being very dynamic would make it much harder for your advisories to hit what they want. Combine that with the relative ineffectiveness of handguns, it seems likely that you'll be injured, but you might survive. It seems to me that practice in this situation will greatly improve your chances.
That said, a number of less sexy approaches might still be viable.
The most simple, toss him the wallet and then bolt. If it's a simple robbery, it might be the end of it. If he shoots at you, you moving and dodging behind cars make it more likely that he will hit you and if he hits you, less likely to be fatal. If they give chase, it gives you opportunity to find cover and draw. If they are in chase they are probably going to be more taken off guard when you pop back up from behind that wall you just jumped over and drop the guy closest to you. And then they look pretty stupid standing there in the middle of the parking lot.
You could walk up and hand him the wallet while engaging him with eye contact and then draw and fire from beneath his field of vision. Again, practice.
You could do nothing and see how it pans out. While it probably isn't the popular angle here there are lots of robberies where the victim isn't killed. Then, if it starts to really go south you can always go back to drawing and do your best. If they want to beat you up a bit you might get a chance to draw unexpectedly or unobserved.
February 9th, 2008 12:21 PM
Not a good mindset to have! There are PLENTY of options you could execute to survive. There is no ONE answer to this situation. However, there are options that will provide your best chance of survival, and there are options that will limit your options of survival. If you rely on the gun to survive under situation #1 or #2, then you have limited your options. If you are screwed and there is “no hope” as some of you think (this is a very realistic scenario that ANY of us could find ourselves in) then we are all dead. I don't think so! They key thing here is to FIGHT!!!
As the scenario is written, I get killed just like the rest of us would. I might be able to shoot a few of them before my bullet/knife punctured heart stops beating.
Sure, it is easy to sit here and SAY that we are all aware 100% of the time, but if we were ALL honest (myself included) with ourselves, we are not aware 100% of the time. So, it is that ONE TIME that you are not 100% aware that you could find yourself in this situation. The question is, WHAT WILL YOU DO?!!! That is why I presented the scenario the way that I did, and with 3 options you could find yourself carrying or not. This is EXACTLY why you need to possess unarmed combative skills!!!
Thanks Logan5 for the comment on the video!!! Your options are only limited by your imagination or TRAINING or the lack thereof.
I’m glad someone asked what I would do.
Primary goal is to survive and not necessarily taking the threats out! If you can get away, then SPLIT!!! You don’t get bonus points for taking one or more attackers out of the fight.
Alright, here is what I would probably do. First of all, you must understand the reaction time and distancing continuum. The average reaction time is about ½ - ¾ of a second. So, if you sidestep and draw, more than likely the attacker is going to put some rounds into you before you can fire your first shot off, even if you do get rounds off you are probably going to be exchanging bullets when this close.
Now, obviously there are two guys with knives so battling them and not the guy with the gun is probably not your best option. The only danger point on the gun is the muzzle. Once you move past that, then you should be safe for a “few seconds”.
Situation #1. I have my gun and I keep one in the chamber-ALWAYS!!! I would slip past the muzzle to the outside of the attacker’s gun arm and draw my gun as I move and fire. I would probably continue past the attacker with the gun to put a body between myself and the other attackers. I seriously doubt that I am going to miss the attacker with the gun at this close range which is pretty much point blank at this time. If necessary I can engage the other two thugs with verbal judo as I make sure that the thug with the gun is no longer a threat.
In fact, there is an article on our forum that demonstrates a couple of options. Close Range Combatives Part I - Modern Warrior Talk
And for the youtube’er folks, YouTube - Serious Tactics for Serious Situations
Situation #2- SHOULD NOT HAPPEN!!! But… some people do it. A gun isn’t loaded and ready to use if one is not in the chamber!
Situation #3- I don’t have my gun because I cannot legally carry where I am going. THAT SHOULD BE THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU ARE NOT CARRYING!!!
So, what would I do? Pretty much the same thing as in situation #1 with my gun. WHY should my tactics change simply because I do not have a gun on my person?!!! I would move to the inside or outside of the attackers gun arm hoping that he shoots one of his friends. I would try to take him out of the fight with a strike to the face, break his elbow and cause the gun to go flying in the air… or disarm him and take his gun and use it how I need to. If the gun goes flying, then I would probably split. I doubt at this point any of the attackers would follow as they think I am a Caucasian version of Jet Li. If they choose to advance, I would try to escape and evade through the cars.
Even with my skills, I am not "anxious" to fight two guys armed with knives! The goal here is to SURVIVE!
February 9th, 2008 01:23 PM
Thanks for your response, Brian. Your plan of action sounds similar to other's responses, at least in part. Your 100% correct in saying that nobody is aware a 100% of the time. It's not really possible. There are places and situations that people should be aware all the time. Parking lots are one of them. Another thing I need to bring up is empty hand combatives. Most people do not have disabling capabillities with punches and elbows, either from a lack of know-how or physical limitations. That's a fact, not an opinion. I think a better alternative might be to teach that not having a gun doesn't mean your unarmed. Even without a knife, there are many common things that can work quite well. A good, quality pen with a steel or aluminum barrel can inflict devastating wounds quickly and those techniques can be taught to anyone. There is no reason to be empty handed in a SD scenario. It's been an interesting read. Thanks, Brian.
February 9th, 2008 03:33 PM
The other issue at hand is that the ideas behind some of the proposed reactions are flawed. You see, you're not trying to move your whole body forward, slap a gun to the side, draw a gun and fire before he can pull the trigger. That's impossible. What you're really trying to do is go faster than his ODA loop, which is much easier considering the situation and the lack of training your average thug has.
Let's get real here, if you get mugged by Jeff Jarrett or a D-boy and they have a gun, just do what they say. You try anything funny and it's gonna be your hindparts in a sling, right quick. Good thing these guys have better things to do than be the greatest mugger of all time, right?
But think of it as a thug would...
Here's some douche not paying attention to his surroundings. You have a gat out which means he's gonna wet himself and beg for his Mommy a bit once you roll up on him, straight gangsta. The power is exhilarating as you imagine him begging for his worthless high-dollar richy life. You have two homeboys with knives backing you up so even if he gets froggy and tries to run away they will shank him or you'll put a few into his back before taking what you want anyway because you're thug. The real deal. A killer. You just grab what you want because you got the gat and that means you got the power to smoke this chump if doesn't do what you want. Yeah, that's it. You're gonna get what you want, make him beg , beat him a bit and then smoke him. That would be sweet as he...
He charging me! Slapped my gun to the side...OK, just get it back on track to smoke this fool...and now his own gun is coming up...Ok, raise your other arm to slap his gun and...POP! POP! POP!
Your two homies are just standing there shocked as you topple over because your legs suddenly won't hold you up. You feel the ground impact against the back of your head as the searing pain of the shots suddenly makes it past the initial shock of the signals overpowering your CNS. It hurts so bad! Your chest and belly feel wet. The wet is getting colder...
He's behind you but you don't have the strength to look. Yelling commands at your homeboys. Yeah, they're get this him for capping you... POP! POP! POP! You hear Chucky scream louder than you've ever heard before. It's almost painful to hear the fear in his voice before you hear him hit the ground like that fool you knocked out at that block party last week...
You hear feet running away as fast as they can. You think it's this fool trying to outrun Two-Tone but Twoey's gots fast feet, he'll get him and shank him good. Hearing the guy on his cellular phone from just feet away jars you to your soul as he starts talking to what sounds like 911. "Yes, my name is *name here* and I just had to shoot two people. I'm at *location here* and wearing a *description of clothing* I have my firearm out so please tell the responding officers to just tell me to put the weapon down when they get here. I will keep my gun on my assailants and you on the line until they arrive..."
Last edited by JD; May 2nd, 2008 at 10:19 PM.
Reason: Edited language.
February 9th, 2008 08:18 PM
Well as tough talk goes some of you are king. I have no doubt in my ability in a fight (fists), and although I've never been in a live gunfight I've had enough practice to not get too freaked out (I think). But the truth is in 3 on 1 fights you are in big trouble! You are going to take damage to your body. If you think your not then you are crazy. This is going to turn into a shooting, stabbing, hitting, eye gouging, biting, kicking, foaming at the mouth kind of fight. I've been in these before minus the shooting. In that kind of fight everybody gets hurt. As I said above If I go out, I'm taking them with me starting with the guy with the gun. Hopefully the other two see how much of an angry raging gun shooting bull you've become and decide to cut and run. Otherwise you are in DEEEEEP doo-doo.
I American and I Ameriwill!
February 9th, 2008 11:33 PM
Excellent point. In my experience, taking out the gobby one explosively and without mercy tends to give you a distinct initiative advantage. Another thing I've noticed in better, they're rarely ever really "good", outcomes is realizing that you're in trouble and going for it before they can really get perfectly set up.
The main problem most people, even many like us who take self-defense/tactical courses, have is the "nice guy syndrome". Most people don't want to fight so they do everything they can to try to talk down or otherwise deescalate the situation while the perpetrators are maneuvering into excellent positions and/or cutting off escape routes. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people get clocked because they were trying to deescalate a situation when everything going on around them should have been telling them, "It's on, my man, might as well go for it."
Your best bet is to stay alert and act in the appropriate manner once your instincts say "Dude, you're in a bad spot here" rather than trying to deescalate things while they get you into a much worst spot.
February 10th, 2008 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by psychophipps
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.Matt K.
February 10th, 2008 03:42 AM
Attack Attack Attack! With extreme force and violence of action! (that's what marines do!)
I would immediately draw and fire as I was tossing him my wallet. I will rely on human nature, in such that, the group of thugs are expecting compliance. They feel that because they have the drop on you with multiple assailants and being armed with a gun and a couple knives that the average person would wet their pants and comply. And they are right!
However, marines aren't average people and I am going to disrupt their OODA Loop by mounting an immediate and aggressive counter attack.
I'm gonna shoot the leader as fast and as much as I can to get him to drop where he stands and then immediately go for cover as I turn to engage the others. I will shoot whoever is still standing there and not running away!
Option 2: Where I have a gun without a round in the chamber. That will not happen. I never carry an empty gun to a gunfight. Always one in the pipe!
Option 3 (no gun on me): As I take my wallet out of my pocket to turn over to the bad guy, I will close the 5 foot gap to contact distance. I will do so in a way that he thinks I'm just meekly handing over my wallet. When I am at arms reach, as I pass the wallet over to him, I will simply drop the wallet on the ground.
Instinctively, his eyes will watch the wallet fall to the ground. As soon as the wallet leaves my hands, I will be initiating a disarming technique learned from the Lindell Method of Handgun Retention and Disarming Techniques and immediately shoot him with his own gun. Several times! I will then immediately move to cover as I shoot whoever is still there moving against me and not actively running away.
I realize that there are no guarantees that I will survive this encounter, but it should be interesting.
I am relying on human nature. Gangs of thugs rely on people complying to their assault. They are not expecting an immediate attack on them. Therefore, I have the element of surprise. In combat, that is a big advantage. I do train with force on force scenarios. Like someone said, it doesn't always come out good for the GG, but it does work often enough that it is my plan. Also I train in weapon retention and disarming techniques often. At least every 2 - 3 months and am confident in using those learned and practiced techniques.
If luck has anything to do with it, I know that luck favors the prepared mind! Every time I go out into dark places I expect and plan on being accosted. Maybe that's why I haven't been accosted in the last 28 years of traveling in dark places.
When I was 17 or 18 I was accosted in a mall parking lot after christmas shopping by a group of guys, one with a knife. I had a bag of decorative heavy candles I was going to give my sister as a christmas present.
When the guy with the knife sprung out from between two cars and demanded my wallet, I was startled but I immediately kicked him right square in the groin as hard as I could. He dropped his knife and his knees buckled hard. I then swung the bag of candles as hard as I could upside his head and he was down on the ground. Probably out! The "bag-o-candles" probably weighed about 3 pounds. I then stomped on him and kicked him two or three times and when I looked for the others they were running in high gear. Just left their buddy on the ground bleeding. (Thugs tend to do that, I learned. Not very brave when the tables are turned and someone else has the upper hand).
That incident I was victim because I was young and had poor situational awareness. I was strolling to my car without a care in the world when it happened. But I had learned from a few YMCA judo classes 9 or 10 years earlier to immediately counter attack the attacker.
Later in the marine corps, I learned unarmed combat skills and a warriors mindset. Now as a former law enforcement defense tactics instructor I know more skills as well as retention and disarming techniques.
Still there are no guarantees. No one is guaranteed to be the one who walks away, and that is where guts and a warrior mindset is what's needed mount a counter attack!
I said in one of my first posts, "Can You Be Too Prepared?" that before I strap on a gun and venture outdoors, I always check and make sure my "head is in the game!" Part of that, is being mentally prepared for an encounter, every time you are out of the house! There's a good book out there called "Complacency Kills" that I would recommend folks read, if you can still find it.
+1 on JD's 1st response! And Amen to Hotguns! Words to live by!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
February 10th, 2008 08:04 PM
The point I was trying to make when I first wrote this is simple. Once the bad guys have surrounded you, closed to within 5 feet, and cut off escape like the scenario says they did, YOU ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO. At least two people commented that my above quote was "defeatist" thinking and I should have a better attitude. Again, as the scenario is written, you are going to bleed! The best time for violent counter attack has come and gone. I truthfully think, that now that I'm in the situation as written , I give the guy my watch my, car keys, and if he wanted it, my jacket (which has my .357 in it) and hope they don't notice my gun until later. My thinking is if they really want to kill me they can...no matter how hard I fight they are going to be able to seriously hurt me. Again, now that I'm in this pickle, my best bet to survive is to fall to the ground try to get my back to a car or tire, and assume the "bear attack" position and "play dead". I'll probably take two or three boots to the gut/ribs and these guys are going to leave me alone. Un-glorious end of story!
As the scenario is written
, I get killed just like the rest of us would. I might be able to shoot a few of them before my bullet/knife punctured heart stops beating.
The time for violent attack and gun fighting was when the 1st guy stepped out and was pulling his pistol, before his two cronies got behind you and in to 5 feet! That was when I would have side stepped, pulled my gun and fought like an animal. As this scenario is written you are in big big trouble!
Last edited by atctimmy; February 10th, 2008 at 10:16 PM.
I American and I Ameriwill!
February 10th, 2008 11:20 PM
Some martial but not that current.
I practice 2's and 3's like this all the time....this is retention to half hip time if it comes to that.
This is extremely tough and should be avoided if there is any other possible way outta there.
1. Be aware of #2 and 3 BUT These mopes will probably run if/when you pull/shoot.
2. Offer and demonstrate compliance and become trustworthy by slooooowly offering your watch ... then your keys ..... then your cell ... then take your alleged Pager (gun) from your pocket holster while distracting with an oblique cell toss or hard at his head.
3. Shoot-Move .. if mopes 2 and 3 are behind, go forward past 1 ... evade and shoot as appropriate.
No excuse for being taken by total surprise like this ... 3 dudes may put moves on but you should see at least some of it coming and react.
One in the chamber always....I ain't dumb.
I practice 2's and 3's cuz both happened to me.
February 12th, 2008 01:47 PM
What an ugly ugly situation. Here the ONLY thing you have going for you is that they are not prepared for you being armed - that's it. At 5-6 feet, I'll comply, by throwing my wallet to BG#1's left or right a few feet. He either has to move to get it and/or bend over. Just the slightest distraction. That's when I draw. And at that range, I'm shooting a few inches out of the holster, one handed, not bringing it up or using sights. 2-3 shots, and if he goes down or opens a slot for me to run through, I'm hauling ass past him. Hopefully the 2 guys behind me decide to bug out. If they attack and I can't get clear, I'll try to turn, left arm up to counter a blow and gun butt in my right side firing from my rib cage. If I can turn and they are on me, I may get hits with them that close. Probably not going to come out unscathed, but the goal is survival.
I'd never carry a gun without a round in the chamber....
If I'm unarmed, I'll comply hoping they let me go, and if they don't I'll fight like a bear. I'm a big guy, so if I can get one BG off his feet I'll try, but against knives and guns I'm not going to last long. I'll use evrything and anything, knife if I have it, car keys, fists and teeth. I wouldn't expect to survive....
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