Multiple Threats…What would YOU do? - Page 5

Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?

This is a discussion on Multiple Threats…What would YOU do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by jonesy_26 What an ugly ugly situation. Here the ONLY thing you have going for you is that they are not prepared for ...

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 80
  1. #61
    Senior Moderator
    Array limatunes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,246
    Quote Originally Posted by jonesy_26 View Post
    What an ugly ugly situation. Here the ONLY thing you have going for you is that they are not prepared for you being armed - that's it.
    I respectfully disagree here.

    I believe that the fact you are alive is a HUGE advantage. As the saying goes, people are easy to search when they're dead.

    BGs could have shot you, taken your money and everything else and high-tailed it out of there. The fact you aren't dead yet says that they are hesitant about killing you (at least for now).

    Your second advantage is that you are aware of them. He could have shot you from a distance, disabled you and given you no clue as to his whereabouts giving you a huge disadvantage. The fact that you know where the bad guys are and how many there are is another HUGE advantage.

    Third, you are healthy! Again, BG could have shot you from afar, rendering you injured and now you are trying to fight against three while wounded. The fact that you have nothing but your fear to get over is another HUGE advantage in your favor.

    Fourthly, like you said, he doesn't know you are armed (or at least shouldn't know). In that case surprise is your advantage.

    And fifthly, it is to your advantage that he is expecting you to move. He's asking you for things. He's expecting your hands to move. You have a GREAT opportunity to draw weapons or even fight hand to hand if necessary with the element of surprise being in your favor when you step up and just start giving him palm after palm to his nose. After all, he was the one who asked you to move.

    Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I see this as a silver lining to a very dark cloud.

    Also, I'm not sorry to say that I refuse to EXPECT to get wounded in this situation. Sure, the likelihood is high that I will get hurt, but I'd rather be thinking of ways out of my situation than worrying about how much this is going to hurt.

    A while back I was reading an article written by a knife instructor. He said that his least favorite saying was, "In a knife fight, expect to get cut."

    He said that while it is technically true that you are more than likely going to get cut if you are engaged in a knife fight, the saying backfired. It's intention was to inform students and prepare them not to be surprised if they are wounded, but to just keep fighting. What it did instead, was make students complacent to being wounded. They concentrated on attacks rather than defense.

    In practice they ignored life-threatening blows because they were "expecting to get cut."

    The instructor taught, rather, that while one should not be surprised to be wounded and should continue to fight despite the wounds, they should never EXPECT to get cut and they should do everything in their power to minimize wounds. Expect to survive and to win and don't let anything, including injuries, keep you from that.

    Putting that into gun terms, when I ran this scenario through my head I never once even considered getting hurt. Sure, I understand completely that it could happen and that's it's likely to happen, I'm going to try to keep it from happening but I'm not going to waste time fearing it, thinking about it, preparing for it or anything else.

    You can loose about 4 pints of blood before you die. That's a LOT of blood.

    Something I learned in one of my defense classes was that if you are aware enough to know you've been hurt, you will probably still be aware enough to fight back and at least still alive when help arrives.

    So, in light of that, in terms of this scenario, I have several advantages, I'm expecting to win, not worried about getting hurt, and I'm going to kick butt!

    That's my mindset.

    Reality may play things out a little differently, but I'll start there.

    Now, tonight JD and I were going over some disarming drills. I'd never done those before (and neither had JD) and even against a big man like JD I didn't do too bad. We went over different positions (such as gun to the head, gun to the chest, get held at retention, and so on) and while I didn't beat on him too bad, I was pleased how such a little thing like me can get a gun away from a big guy as long as I utilize a few good angles and blows.

    The fact of the matter is that even though there are three bad guys you can only deal with one at a time. BG #1 goes first. At that moment he presents the biggest threat, and even if that means me trying to disarm him, well then there I go. I'll deal with BG 2 and 3 as they come. Hopefully with enough force to convince them that they messed with the wrong gal.

    And if I come out wounded, well then I'll have some really cool battle scars!

    Just kidding.

    Fact of the matter is that only 5% of gun shot wounds are fatal. I don't know what the percentage of knife wounds is and I won't pretend, but I doubt very seriously that BG2 and 3 are going to step in to stab me while guns are being thrown around. They don't want to get shot and stepping in front of that gun will probably do it for them if they try, but by the time I either pull my gun or get the gun away from BG1 we'll see what kind of guts they have and I'll deal with it then.

    If they are running, well then I am too.

    P.S.
    A blue gun for this kind of training is indispensable! I recommend every household have one.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.W.
    Posts
    2,917
    Respectfully,

    In 2000, the CDC recorded 28663 firearm fatalities and 75685 non-fatal injuries (intentional and unintentional for both numbers).

    So, out of 104348 firearm related injuries, 27.4% were fatal.

    The CDC does not keep track of how many shots were fired. I've heard but have not been able to confirm the sub 10% figures frequently tossed about are based on the number of shots fired. What matters, is the number of incidents where a human being is hit, and how often that human being dies. And that's a tad over 1 out of 4.

    If anyone can point me to data indicating otherwise I would be most appreciative. Thanks!
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  3. #63
    VIP Member
    Array atctimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NSA Headquarters
    Posts
    6,425
    I can tell that Limatunes is a glass half full kinda gal.

    Something I learned in one of my defense classes was that if you are aware enough to know you've been hurt, you will probably still be aware enough to fight back and at least still alive when help arrives.
    I've broken my nose, ribs, and my hands in fights before. I've been hit with pool cues, and bottles. The truth is that when you are raging on adrenalin you feel almost zero pain. You won't know your seriously hurt until later, and that won't stop you from dying from the wounds sustained, or from bleeding out after the fight. So the above statement may not be true in the fact that you may be able to fight and kill all three bad guys and still die before help arrives.

    So, in light of that, in terms of this scenario, I have several advantages, I'm expecting to win, not worried about getting hurt, and I'm going to kick butt!
    I'm a fighter. It's in my blood and has been all my life. It would eat me up inside to have to give my wallet, watch, and jacket (with gun) to these guys, but once they have you surrounded you're in big trouble. The only win in this scenario is if you see the next sunrise. Your best bet is to acquiess to their demands. When they get everything you have they'll go away. As previously stated fighting time was before you became boxed in.

    Note to Limatunes: As a woman I think you should fight because they will probably want more from you than money. For a balding middle aged slightly fat guy (me) the scenario is different .
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas, in the RGV
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Your best bet is to acquiesce to their demands. When they get everything you have they'll go away.
    So the absolutely huge statistical increase in robbers killing their victims afterwards despite compliance has no bearing in your decision making? Just wondering.

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.W.
    Posts
    2,917
    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    So the absolutely huge statistical increase in robbers killing their victims afterwards despite compliance has no bearing in your decision making? Just wondering.
    I don't think I understand your statement. In 2006 there were 1041 murders during robberies: FBI UCR DATA, up from 930 in 2005 which was a five year low. Is that what you're asking? Or are you pointing out that it's the most likely felony to result in a murder? I'm confused by the reference, that's all, and I'd like to help others who might likewise be confused understand where this is going.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  6. #66
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Richmond, IN
    Posts
    123
    The other issue at hand is that the ideas behind some of the proposed reactions are flawed. You see, you're not trying to move your whole body forward, slap a gun to the side, draw a gun and fire before he can pull the trigger. That's impossible. What you're really trying to do is go faster than his ODA loop, which is much easier considering the situation and the lack of training your average thug has.
    Ok, if I am 5 feet away from the attacker who has the gun pointed at me, and the average person can cover 21 feet of ground in about 1.5 seconds, I am only ¼ that distance away from the attacker. So, to keep it simple we will say that I can cover that distance in about ½ second. Keep in mind that the attacker probably has his arms fully extended which place the gun about 2 feet away from me. So, now I only need less than ¼ of a second to clear the muzzle. I have the element of surprise. Sometimes that will work more to your advantage than you can imagine IF you use it correctly. When we train in our personal time, we have found that if you do some things which is hard to write and describe here, the attacker will go what the ????? and you throw their thought process off.

    Now, it is VERY important that you move the target first and NOT the weapon. Moving the weapon first will increase your chances of getting shot. During our training time with Airsoft we have been successful at training with advancing techniques before the adversary pulled the trigger and they knew the movement was coming.

    For the most part, when someone got shot, it was because the defender telegraphed their movement or the attacker anticipated the movement. Of course, they knew what was coming so it was easy to anticipate.

    Slapping the gun is not always the answer because most people will have their finger on the trigger.

    Truth of the matter is you may get shot. However, you MUST STILL FIGHT TO SURVIVE. No where in any of the postings did anyone say that you will not get shot and that their tactics are 100% proven. However, with practice you build confidence and skill. With that, you have increased your chances of pulling something off.

    Yes, the scenario presented places you in big trouble. But, it IS survivable!!! A situation that you may find yourself in may be this very scenario (with some different variables of course) so you need to think about your best options ahead of time.

    I agree that there is a low percentage of fatality for those who are shot. That is EXACTLY why we teach the gun is not the solution!!! If you EXPECT to shoot someone AND they are going to fall down and die immediately, you are living in fantasy land. In a dynamic situation your hit ratio is not going to be as high as what you think. However, the hit ratio in Officer Involved Shootings is about 20%, is probably because they were moving away from the threat while the threat was moving. Now, what if the threat doesn’t have time to move and you literally place the gun on them (not that I recommend this-we always tell people to have at least a couple of inches of space if possible), what do you think that your percentage of hit ratio is going to be? Probably A LOT higher than you think. AND, shot placement is probably going to be much better as well.

    The truth is that when you are raging on adrenalin you feel almost zero pain. You won't know your seriously hurt until later, and that won't stop you from dying from the wounds sustained, or from bleeding out after the fight.
    A lot of people do not know they are shot. According to the FBI’s Handgun Wounding Factor’s and Effectiveness Report, most people die from the mental aspect of being shot and not from the physical wound. When they realize they are shot, they THINK they must die because that is what Hollywood shows, or whatever. They loose their will to survive at that point.

    Again, no tactic is guaranteed to keep you alive. However, some tactics are much better than others and will maximize your chances of survival while others may greatly reduce your chances of survival. And that is why YOU must train to figure out under “ideal” circumstances what will and will not work!!!
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

  7. #67
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    philadelphia
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    The point I was trying to make when I first wrote this is simple. Once the bad guys have surrounded you, closed to within 5 feet, and cut off escape like the scenario says they did, YOU ARE IN DEEP DOO-DOO. At least two people commented that my above quote was "defeatist" thinking and I should have a better attitude. Again, as the scenario is written, you are going to bleed!
    This is why I can't get too motivated by invented, fictitious scenarios, and why I don't take my guidance from them. You can always reverse engineer a scenario so that the ONLY answer is your pet technique, and nothing else will do. Well, of course this scenario "proves" you have to move quickly, shoot one handed, and carry chamber-loaded -- it was designed to do exactly that.

    The real question, of course, is: how often does this EXACT scenario happen, such that you have no choices before hand?

  8. #68
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    philadelphia
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Respectfully,

    In 2000, the CDC recorded 28663 firearm fatalities and 75685 non-fatal injuries (intentional and unintentional for both numbers).

    So, out of 104348 firearm related injuries, 27.4% were fatal.

    The CDC does not keep track of how many shots were fired. I've heard but have not been able to confirm the sub 10% figures frequently tossed about are based on the number of shots fired. What matters, is the number of incidents where a human being is hit, and how often that human being dies. And that's a tad over 1 out of 4.
    A lot of those are SUICIDES, which are clearly more likely to kill you than other shots. You have to throw out suicides to get a real picture.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    philadelphia
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian@ITC View Post
    Ok, if I am 5 feet away from the attacker who has the gun pointed at me, and the average person can cover 21 feet of ground in about 1.5 seconds, I am only ¼ that distance away from the attacker. So, to keep it simple we will say that I can cover that distance in about ½ second. Keep in mind that the attacker probably has his arms fully extended which place the gun about 2 feet away from me. So, now I only need less than ¼ of a second to clear the muzzle.
    Here's another case where the scenario is finely tuned to allow the pet technique as the desired answer: the scenario has to be just close enough that a combatives type move can plausibly deflect the muzzle, thus making the desired solution the best one.

    But in reality, how many robbers will stand directly in front of you with a muzzle in just the right position that you can move offline and get to it? That's seems an awfully presumptive basis to base your entire response on.

  10. #70
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.W.
    Posts
    2,917
    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    A lot of those are SUICIDES, which are clearly more likely to kill you than other shots. You have to throw out suicides to get a real picture.
    I'm glad you caught that.

    I was, admittedly, fishing for the source of claims otherwise, rather than a critique.

    Suicides were 16586 (fatal) and 3016 (non-fatal) for 2000.

    Subtracting them from the mix:
    84746 injuries, of which 12077 were fatal.

    That represents a fatality rate (non-suicide firearms) of 14.3%, or 1 in 7.

    I'm glad you pointed it out, I was hoping it would have motivated someone to clarify their sub 10% statement.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  11. #71
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    philadelphia
    Posts
    513
    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    That represents a fatality rate (non-suicide firearms) of 14.3%.
    I'm guessing that if you excluded long guns, and looked at handguns only, the percentage would be lower.

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    N.W.
    Posts
    2,917
    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    I'm guessing that if you excluded long guns, and looked at handguns only, the percentage would be lower.
    That's not something easy to check, unless someone has done it for us.

    UCR Data for type of weapons, 2002 - 2006

    The UCR for 2006 shows that 77% of firearms homicides were committed with handguns.

    That doesn't mean you're right or wrong, it just means that most murders are committed with handguns. Unfortunately the statistics you are looking for haven't been assembled for us, someone will have to do a study (if they haven't already).
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  13. #73
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Southeast
    Posts
    1,996
    Quote Originally Posted by fhqwhgads View Post
    I got to think your best bet is toss the wallet high at BG1, toward his face, while in the same motion starting your draw.
    My fake of the wallet toss would BE my draw.....

    "Okay, man. Okay. Here it is...."

    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  14. #74
    VIP Member
    Array atctimmy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NSA Headquarters
    Posts
    6,425
    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    My fake of the wallet toss would BE my draw.....

    "Okay, man. Okay. Here it is...."
    Aaaah but you're cheating the scenario. He already has your wallet and he's mad that there's no money in it. Almost everybody keeps talking about how they would fake the wallet toss and draw, and I think that's a good idea. However, as the scenario is written, we've progressed past this point when the scenario starts. I've been saying the whole time that the time to pull your weapon was before you were boxed in.

    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    So the absolutely huge statistical increase in robbers killing their victims afterwards despite compliance has no bearing in your decision making? Just wondering.

    No it has none.
    My decision making is framed and limited by the existing scenario parameters. The very next line I wrote that you chose not to quote was that the fight should have started earlier (when bad guy 1 first appears). I am not Rambo or James Bond, and I think that as the scenario is written my best chance to survive is to aquiess.

    As I stated previously I am a fighter through and through, and in real life I would be fighting these guys long before I lost 98% of the positional advantage.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  15. #75
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    SE MI
    Posts
    325
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I respectfully disagree here.

    I believe that the fact you are alive is a HUGE advantage. As the saying goes, people are easy to search when they're dead.

    BGs could have shot you, taken your money and everything else and high-tailed it out of there. The fact you aren't dead yet says that they are hesitant about killing you (at least for now).

    Your second advantage is that you are aware of them. He could have shot you from a distance, disabled you and given you no clue as to his whereabouts giving you a huge disadvantage. The fact that you know where the bad guys are and how many there are is another HUGE advantage.

    Third, you are healthy! Again, BG could have shot you from afar, rendering you injured and now you are trying to fight against three while wounded. The fact that you have nothing but your fear to get over is another HUGE advantage in your favor.

    Fourthly, like you said, he doesn't know you are armed (or at least shouldn't know). In that case surprise is your advantage.

    And fifthly, it is to your advantage that he is expecting you to move. He's asking you for things. He's expecting your hands to move. You have a GREAT opportunity to draw weapons or even fight hand to hand if necessary with the element of surprise being in your favor when you step up and just start giving him palm after palm to his nose. After all, he was the one who asked you to move.

    Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I see this as a silver lining to a very dark cloud.

    Also, I'm not sorry to say that I refuse to EXPECT to get wounded in this situation. Sure, the likelihood is high that I will get hurt, but I'd rather be thinking of ways out of my situation than worrying about how much this is going to hurt.
    Lima, I'm sure there is a silver lining here, and it may be as simple as us (the victim) showing force. That may be enough to get them to scatter. But I tried to answer this the way the scenario was written, and given that, some of the advantages you list I feel don't play into this - yeah you are alive, but that's at the start of the encounter, and you are aware of them, but as written they suprise you-you don't see this unfold from a tactically aware standpoint. Remember, before you act he has a gun presented already, and his crew have knives (we are told we know this as written) so really the advantage is them not knowing or expecting that we are armed. They are probaby over-confident in their numbers. And you mentioned another advantage that works in our favor - BG#1 expects us to move to get out wallet/valuables etc. Thats when I draw and shoot from just above the holster. Hopefully thats the end of the confrontation.

    And when I mentioned that I expect to get hurt, I wasn't meaning that I would worry about it; rather that expecting it means I've accepted the fact it will happen so it kind of frees me up to do what you said - work on ways out of the situation.

    Looking at the big picture, the fact that there are three of them(and armed) can mean a couple of things.
    -they know that by using intimidating numbers, they are sure to get what they want
    -they will try more than they appear to be after.

    I for one am not taking any chances. Too many cases of BG's being violent just to be violent. But the unarmed scenario bothers me. If something happens beyond them just taking your money, most people are going get hurt or worse. It would take someone proficient at martial arts to have a better than even shot. I was not optimistic about this part because IF something happens and they attack, whether it be with guns or knives, I doubt they are going to stop with only a couple of jabs or shots...

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Animal threats
    By BugDude in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: December 22nd, 2010, 06:46 PM
  2. Can I get multiple CFLs from multiple states?
    By cyberdogg in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: April 11th, 2009, 09:41 PM
  3. How do you check out possible threats
    By 4my sons in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: July 4th, 2008, 05:47 PM
  4. Received threats
    By homersimpson in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: September 26th, 2006, 08:16 PM
  5. Other threats than 2 legged?
    By P95Carry in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 28th, 2005, 05:23 PM

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors