Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?

This is a discussion on Multiple Threats…What would YOU do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; About 90% of attacks take place within 10 feet. Most of which take place at 0-6 feet. I want to present “a” situation to you ...

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Thread: Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?

  1. #1
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?

    About 90% of attacks take place within 10 feet. Most of which take place at 0-6 feet. I want to present “a” situation to you to get some of your thought processes in handling this situation.

    You are heading to your car in a parking lot when a thug comes out of “no where” as they often do because of the lack of awareness or because they were actually hiding. The thug has a gun concealed in his pocket and presents it to you when he is about 5 feet away from you. While starring down the barrel of the gun you are surrounded by two more thugs who approach from the rear and they appear to have knives and are about 5-6 feet away. You are standing in the middle of the parking “lane” with cars about 7-10 feet away on your left and right sides. The thugs have cut off your option to run in the open space of the “lane” in front and behind you.

    The thug in charge (who has the gun) demands your wallet. You throw it to him and then he says something about there not being any or enough money in it and becomes irate and threatens to shoot you. What are you going to do?

    Here are things that I want to know.
    1. What is your primary goal in this situation?
    2. What are you going to do and how are you going to accomplish it. That is, if you move, what direction are you going to move and with what footwork? Are you going to try and create distance? If using your gun, are you going to use a two handed shooting platform with your arms extended? Provide as many details as you can envision in this situation as to what you would do.

    We are going to split this up into three “options” with you so you need to provide “three” answers.
    1. You have your gun and one is in the chamber.
    2. You have your gun but you don’t keep a round chambered.
    3. You are without your gun because it is in your car.


    Here is some food for thought as you try and resolve this situation while you are at your monitor and not out in the real world facing a real life threat.

    Being TOTALLY honest with yourself, are you confident enough about your skills to be able to draw your gun and shoot the attacker(s) and take them out of the fight at this close of a distance with multiple threats?

    If you say that you will disarm them when you don’t have a gun, what skills do you really have to back that tactic up?

    Train hard, train often, and train REALISTICALLY!!!
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

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  3. #2
    JD
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    For Scenario 1.

    Goals:
    Survival
    Evade to Cover.
    Escape if possible.

    Fake the wallet toss, draw and shoot BG in front, arms may or may not become fully extended @ 5' given that I'm about to run over him and run like the dickens my arms will probably come up higher than a retention position...
    Run full out, straight ahead, run around BG 1 as I don't want to trip.
    I'm going straight with an erratic bob and weave pattern as the cars on the sides are obstacles that will impede my escape, and may be concealing other unknown obstacles

    Scan for cover on the fly, if cover can be reached safely, take cover, and scan for threats 2 and 3, address as necessary.

    If cover can not be found immediately and safely, keep running until you can find it, or have evaded the threat.

    If cover is found quickly, and BGs 2 and 3 persist, shoot BGs 2+3, reload, call 911

    If no cover is available, and BGs 2 and 3 are not giving chase, find concealment and call 911.

    Option 2: Sorry, But I don't carry condition 3, so I'm not bothering with that one.

    Option 3: Kind of the same deal with scenario 1, except that I won't be shooting and I'll be looking for a lateral exit to the opposite side of his gun hand so he'll have to sweep his guys and hopefully shoot them on accident while pivoting to target me while I put distance from BG 1 armed with the gun, I'll be doing the bob and weave at a low crouch through the cars as much as possible utilizing them other as cover and concealment, advancing to the rear oblique more towards the pair to give him (BG1) more to look at as a target.

    Find cover or concealment, call 911, try and loop back to my car undetected and retrieve my firearm. Re address situation as needed while armed and waiting for Police.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Those numbers are interesting... where'd you get them?

    At that distance, my only goal is to survive. Inside 9 feet, you're toast.

    Have you actually run this scenario?

    1. Draw, shoot one handed using my weak side hand and feet to deflect the assailants.

    2. Never happen.

    3. Draw my knife and fight.

    I've run a similar scenario FOF. At 9 feet, the GG never came out well.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    In the scenario you present, it sounds like you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

    If you DON'T fight, there's a good chance they're going to beat the crapola out of you (if not kill you) and take anything worth any money (watch, jewelry, cell phone, car keys, etc...) and leave you for dead.
    If you DO fight, you may win and you may not.

    Me? I'd take the chance - I'd rather go down swinging than die on my knees cowering, and at this point in my life I have no children to worry about. I know the odds in this particular situation aren't in my favor. But I do have a few small advantages.

    I'll assume I AM carrying, and have one in the pipe.

    I'd try to create a good opportunity to draw - maybe tell them I have more money for them in my car and start moving towards it, hopefully getting to a position where I can use one or more cars for cover.
    If nothing else, I'd try my best to get all three BG's on one "side" of me so I can't easily be outflanked. If this means diving between two cars, so be it. At least this would present a hard target to hit.

    The BG with the gun is obviously priority #1 and should get a doubletap COM before engaging BG's with knives. If the others flee, I'll let them go (I'd never shoot a fleeing BG unless I believed he was about to go harm someone close to me). The whole thing is probably going to go down in about 4 seconds and I'd hope to have the element of shock and surprise on my side - it might not play out that way, but I'd sure hope that the BG's aren't expecting me to be packing, and that I'll buy a split second of time from the "shock factor" when the gun-wielding BG gets doubletapped.

    Talking about shooting stance and platform here is pure speculation - none of us have any idea how the situation will play out and what time/space will allow for. I'm guessing the first shot will be from a quickdraw/retention position and then I'd raise the gun up to "high ready" if the situation allowed.

    As SOON as the immediate threat is over (gun-wielding BG is down and the other two BG's haven't produced ranged weapons) I'm booking it and dialing 911. If the other two BG's continue showing aggression (following me, etc...) I'm dropping them without hesitation - the jury should be able to clearly see that it was self defense, and I could very legitimately claim that I was in fear of my life.

    If I wasn't carrying? Complying with their demands seems like your only option, it's 1 vs 3 and one of them has a gun. Unless you spot a good opportunity to run, you're kinda screwed - and even if you do, the BG with a gun may shoot at you while you're fleeing. I'm not going to claim to have the cahones to attempt a disarm move with two more BG's with knives at my back...

    Just my analysis.

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
    - Margaret Mead


    "Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch" - unknown

  6. #5
    Ron
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    Not to hijack this thread, but I think that this is the kind of scenario that argues forcefully for carrying wth a round in the chamber. Speaking only for myself, this scenario would create for me a very high stress situation. I would be lucky if I could distract the BG with the gun enough to draw my gun and get off a couple of rounds. I think it highly unlikely that I could do all that if I had to first rack the slide to chamber a round. The chance of messing it up under that kind of stress would be great. Again, speaking only for myself.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Not to hijack this thread, but I think that this is the kind of scenario that argues forcefully for carrying wth a round in the chamber. Speaking only for myself, this scenario would create for me a very high stress situation. I would be lucky if I could distract the BG with the gun enough to draw my gun and get off a couple of rounds. I think it highly unlikely that I could do all that if I had to first rack the slide to chamber a round. The chance of messing it up under that kind of stress would be great. Again, speaking only for myself.

    Ron
    I agree 100%, if you decide to draw in this situation you better have one in the pipe ready to rock or you're dead meat. <start rant>
    An unloaded gun is a very expensive club. I never have really understood all the "chambered or not?" threads. If you're not comfortable carrying your weapon chambered, either get a different weapon or get more comfortable with yours. </end rant>

    I also wanted to add, the only way you'd get into this situation is by a lack of situational awareness. Maybe I'm overestimating myself, but I'm pretty sure I'd spot a couple of guys chillin' in the parking lot, and would park elsewhere. Even if one was hiding and "ambushed me", I'd sure like to think I'd be more in-tune with my surroundings than to let two more sneak up behind me unnoticed. Situational Awareness is your first line of defense.

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
    - Margaret Mead


    "Booger Hook Off the Bang Switch" - unknown

  8. #7
    Member Array Dan M.'s Avatar
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    JD, no fair. You can't fake the wallet throw. You've already tossed it to him. It says so in the OP.

  9. #8
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan M. View Post
    JD, no fair. You can't fake the wallet throw. You've already tossed it to him. It says so in the OP.
    Always cheat, always win.

    I'll throw the wallet when I want to.

    If your going to win a fight, you have to manipulate the momentum of the situation in your favor. In this case, the wallet throw is the time to act, it sets the pace for whatever follows, next, if you throw the wallet, you're food and they will become more aggressive. The more you follow what THEY want, the more control you loose, you can never take back lost time.

  10. #9
    Member Array Dan M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Always cheat, always win.

    I'll throw the wallet when I want to.

    If your going to win a fight, you have to manipulate the momentum of the situation in your favor. In this case, the wallet throw is the time to act, it sets the pace for whatever follows, next, if you throw the wallet, you're food and they will become more aggressive. The more you follow what THEY want, the more control you loose, you can never take back lost time.
    Well spoken.

  11. #10
    Member Array fhqwhgads's Avatar
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    Can I get a "redo" on the wallet toss?

    For option 1:
    I got to think your best bet is toss the wallet high at BG1, toward his face, while in the same motion starting your draw. The flying wallet should distract BG2 and 3 as they will probably follow it with their eyes instead of staying completely focused on you. BG1 gets 2 COM from retention while you're starting your move to get cover/distance. Basically, your wallet toss, draw, and movement all start almost simultaneously.

    Option 2:
    Won't happen.

    Option 3:
    Hope you've trained with some disarm techniques and you head for BG1 first, because I really see that as the only "survivable" option. At a minimum, you're going to get cut, and there's probably not a good outcome for this either way.

  12. #11
    Member Array DocRhino's Avatar
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    +1 to Pete on awareness...

    Anytime in the day or night that I enter a parking garage and always at night if I'm not at home, I have a Surefire in my weak side hand. I'm assuming this a dark scenario...

    BG1 comes out of hiding, the light comes up to center of my chest and triggers in his face. Strong side is drawing as I shuffle towards my weak side in small steps. As my weapon clears, the muzzle comes up and at least two rounds come out on COM. Assuming the BG1 is going down, I pivot on to BG2 ( the guy behind and left) as he is the closest threat. If he is still interested in the dance, 2 rounds COM as the arms extend and I back up to get BG1 in my peripheral vision to see if there is movement. Assess BG3 and either tap him or, if he is losing interest/far enough for a pause, check BG1 with frontal vision to make sure he is really out of the fight.

    Assuming the threats are neutralized, cover and call 911.

    The best piece of advice, if I may, is the Surefire. In an Atlanta hotel parking garage, I lost situational awareness while messing with a kid and turned to face a guy that had come out from behind a Suburban with his briefcase. The light came up and I hit it. It was at night and semi-dark in the garage. He jerked his head so hard to avoid the light he banged his head into his truck right smartly. An embarrassing situation was made worse by an 8-year old howling in laughter, "Daddy, you made him bang his head!!!"
    When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow

  13. #12
    Member Array Dan M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whuffines View Post
    In an Atlanta hotel parking garage, I lost situational awareness while messing with a kid and turned to face a guy that had come out from behind a Suburban with his briefcase. The light came up and I hit it. It was at night and semi-dark in the garage. He jerked his head so hard to avoid the light he banged his head into his truck right smartly. An embarrassing situation was made worse by an 8-year old howling in laughter, "Daddy, you made him bang his head!!!"
    Coulda been worse. You coulda shot him twice COM.

  14. #13
    Member Array DocRhino's Avatar
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    At the time, I wasn't legal to carry in Georgia or it would have been tragic instead of embarrassing. On the other hand, the responsibility of carrying more than a Surefire has made me MUCH more conscious of my surroundings and threats.

    My instructor pilot used to say bad things about my mother (and he hadn't even met her) when I would 'get behind the airplane. His view of the world, and it has become mine, is that if you have to do something quickly, you are 'behind' the situation. It is true of driving, shooting, hunting, golf... etc. etc.

    My instructor pilot would all of a sudden cut power as we were going out to the practice area and say,"You just lost power, where are you going to land?" If I said,"Uh...", he would say,"Huffines, you stupid son-of-*****! Are you trying to kill both of us?" That taught me to CONSTANTLY 'game' alternatives. Look at the farm ponds to keep track of wind direction. Keep track of where power lines are in the area below. Are there plowed fields? Are the fields plowed with the wind or cross wind? Where would I land now? Now? In five minutes?

    I have extended that as part of self defense and awareness. Because in a given week, I may be in Denver or Cleveland or Boise or Knoxville, etc, I think in terms of 'what are the threats' and 'what would I do if'.

    Rental cars and strange parking lots and garages are part of my daily grind. It keeps me aware in a new way that is kind of a fun game.

    This is a great scenario BTW... the Kobyoshi Maru
    When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. - C. P. Snow

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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    JD, damned right. Cheat any way you can. They aren't fighting fair. Why should you?!

    My only goal in this situation is to survive. As a wise man once said "We ain't makin' cornflakes here" - if there are three armed ones I don't think any good will come from the aftermath. Personally?

    1. Throw the wallet to his face. Draw and fire while getting the hell off the X and moving past him. Turn and if either of the other two have so much as taken a step towards me then they get similar treatment.
    2. Not happening. Ever.
    3. "I've got more money in the car. Swear! Please don't kill me!" *weep cry sheep*

    I'm 100% with JD on this one. Turning the momentum and initiative to yourself is paramount to your survival. I think Limatune's comment about "Death is not an excuse for not fighting back" applies here.
    Last edited by SixBravo; February 7th, 2008 at 08:29 PM. Reason: left something out
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  16. #15
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    Primary goal, as is any SD situation is to survive (as intact as possible) and escape.

    to the extent that I can predict my response...
    Scenario 1: why fool with the wallet? He's expecting me to reach for something, he's just not going to see what he expected to see. Draw while exploding off the X. Shoot the guy with the gun and any/all of the others who act like they still intend to attack.

    Scenario 2: Will never happen...I carry my gun LOADED!

    Scenario 3: Unlikely as I carry 99.9% of the time. For that .1%, the action/reaction OODA-Loop thing works both ways. Take out the guy with the gun and then run like hell in a safe direction (preferably toward my vehicle where there WILL be a gun).
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

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