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Multiple Threats…What would YOU do?

6K views 79 replies 35 participants last post by  MJK 
#1 ·
About 90% of attacks take place within 10 feet. Most of which take place at 0-6 feet. I want to present “a” situation to you to get some of your thought processes in handling this situation.

You are heading to your car in a parking lot when a thug comes out of “no where” as they often do because of the lack of awareness or because they were actually hiding. The thug has a gun concealed in his pocket and presents it to you when he is about 5 feet away from you. While starring down the barrel of the gun you are surrounded by two more thugs who approach from the rear and they appear to have knives and are about 5-6 feet away. You are standing in the middle of the parking “lane” with cars about 7-10 feet away on your left and right sides. The thugs have cut off your option to run in the open space of the “lane” in front and behind you.

The thug in charge (who has the gun) demands your wallet. You throw it to him and then he says something about there not being any or enough money in it and becomes irate and threatens to shoot you. What are you going to do?

Here are things that I want to know.
1. What is your primary goal in this situation?
2. What are you going to do and how are you going to accomplish it. That is, if you move, what direction are you going to move and with what footwork? Are you going to try and create distance? If using your gun, are you going to use a two handed shooting platform with your arms extended? Provide as many details as you can envision in this situation as to what you would do.

We are going to split this up into three “options” with you so you need to provide “three” answers.
1. You have your gun and one is in the chamber.
2. You have your gun but you don’t keep a round chambered.
3. You are without your gun because it is in your car.


Here is some food for thought as you try and resolve this situation while you are at your monitor and not out in the real world facing a real life threat.

Being TOTALLY honest with yourself, are you confident enough about your skills to be able to draw your gun and shoot the attacker(s) and take them out of the fight at this close of a distance with multiple threats?

If you say that you will disarm them when you don’t have a gun, what skills do you really have to back that tactic up?

Train hard, train often, and train REALISTICALLY!!!
 
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#2 ·
For Scenario 1.

Goals:
Survival
Evade to Cover.
Escape if possible.

Fake the wallet toss, draw and shoot BG in front, arms may or may not become fully extended @ 5' given that I'm about to run over him and run like the dickens my arms will probably come up higher than a retention position...
Run full out, straight ahead, run around BG 1 as I don't want to trip.
I'm going straight with an erratic bob and weave pattern as the cars on the sides are obstacles that will impede my escape, and may be concealing other unknown obstacles

Scan for cover on the fly, if cover can be reached safely, take cover, and scan for threats 2 and 3, address as necessary.

If cover can not be found immediately and safely, keep running until you can find it, or have evaded the threat.

If cover is found quickly, and BGs 2 and 3 persist, shoot BGs 2+3, reload, call 911

If no cover is available, and BGs 2 and 3 are not giving chase, find concealment and call 911.

Option 2: Sorry, But I don't carry condition 3, so I'm not bothering with that one.

Option 3: Kind of the same deal with scenario 1, except that I won't be shooting and I'll be looking for a lateral exit to the opposite side of his gun hand so he'll have to sweep his guys and hopefully shoot them on accident while pivoting to target me while I put distance from BG 1 armed with the gun, I'll be doing the bob and weave at a low crouch through the cars as much as possible utilizing them other as cover and concealment, advancing to the rear oblique more towards the pair to give him (BG1) more to look at as a target.

Find cover or concealment, call 911, try and loop back to my car undetected and retrieve my firearm. Re address situation as needed while armed and waiting for Police.
 
#3 ·
:blink:

Those numbers are interesting... where'd you get them?

At that distance, my only goal is to survive. Inside 9 feet, you're toast.

Have you actually run this scenario?

1. Draw, shoot one handed using my weak side hand and feet to deflect the assailants.

2. Never happen.

3. Draw my knife and fight.

I've run a similar scenario FOF. At 9 feet, the GG never came out well.
 
#4 ·
In the scenario you present, it sounds like you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

If you DON'T fight, there's a good chance they're going to beat the crapola out of you (if not kill you) and take anything worth any money (watch, jewelry, cell phone, car keys, etc...) and leave you for dead.
If you DO fight, you may win and you may not.

Me? I'd take the chance - I'd rather go down swinging than die on my knees cowering, and at this point in my life I have no children to worry about. I know the odds in this particular situation aren't in my favor. But I do have a few small advantages.

I'll assume I AM carrying, and have one in the pipe.

I'd try to create a good opportunity to draw - maybe tell them I have more money for them in my car and start moving towards it, hopefully getting to a position where I can use one or more cars for cover.
If nothing else, I'd try my best to get all three BG's on one "side" of me so I can't easily be outflanked. If this means diving between two cars, so be it. At least this would present a hard target to hit.

The BG with the gun is obviously priority #1 and should get a doubletap COM before engaging BG's with knives. If the others flee, I'll let them go (I'd never shoot a fleeing BG unless I believed he was about to go harm someone close to me). The whole thing is probably going to go down in about 4 seconds and I'd hope to have the element of shock and surprise on my side - it might not play out that way, but I'd sure hope that the BG's aren't expecting me to be packing, and that I'll buy a split second of time from the "shock factor" when the gun-wielding BG gets doubletapped.

Talking about shooting stance and platform here is pure speculation - none of us have any idea how the situation will play out and what time/space will allow for. I'm guessing the first shot will be from a quickdraw/retention position and then I'd raise the gun up to "high ready" if the situation allowed.

As SOON as the immediate threat is over (gun-wielding BG is down and the other two BG's haven't produced ranged weapons) I'm booking it and dialing 911. If the other two BG's continue showing aggression (following me, etc...) I'm dropping them without hesitation - the jury should be able to clearly see that it was self defense, and I could very legitimately claim that I was in fear of my life.

If I wasn't carrying? Complying with their demands seems like your only option, it's 1 vs 3 and one of them has a gun. Unless you spot a good opportunity to run, you're kinda screwed - and even if you do, the BG with a gun may shoot at you while you're fleeing. I'm not going to claim to have the cahones to attempt a disarm move with two more BG's with knives at my back...

Just my analysis.

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
 
#5 ·
Not to hijack this thread, but I think that this is the kind of scenario that argues forcefully for carrying wth a round in the chamber. Speaking only for myself, this scenario would create for me a very high stress situation. I would be lucky if I could distract the BG with the gun enough to draw my gun and get off a couple of rounds. I think it highly unlikely that I could do all that if I had to first rack the slide to chamber a round. The chance of messing it up under that kind of stress would be great. Again, speaking only for myself.

Ron
 
#6 ·
I agree 100%, if you decide to draw in this situation you better have one in the pipe ready to rock or you're dead meat. <start rant>
An unloaded gun is a very expensive club. I never have really understood all the "chambered or not?" threads. If you're not comfortable carrying your weapon chambered, either get a different weapon or get more comfortable with yours. </end rant>

I also wanted to add, the only way you'd get into this situation is by a lack of situational awareness. Maybe I'm overestimating myself, but I'm pretty sure I'd spot a couple of guys chillin' in the parking lot, and would park elsewhere. Even if one was hiding and "ambushed me", I'd sure like to think I'd be more in-tune with my surroundings than to let two more sneak up behind me unnoticed. Situational Awareness is your first line of defense.

Peace,
Pete Zaria.
 
#8 ·
Always cheat, always win.:fal:

I'll throw the wallet when I want to.

If your going to win a fight, you have to manipulate the momentum of the situation in your favor. In this case, the wallet throw is the time to act, it sets the pace for whatever follows, next, if you throw the wallet, you're food and they will become more aggressive. The more you follow what THEY want, the more control you loose, you can never take back lost time.
 
#10 ·
Can I get a "redo" on the wallet toss?

For option 1:
I got to think your best bet is toss the wallet high at BG1, toward his face, while in the same motion starting your draw. The flying wallet should distract BG2 and 3 as they will probably follow it with their eyes instead of staying completely focused on you. BG1 gets 2 COM from retention while you're starting your move to get cover/distance. Basically, your wallet toss, draw, and movement all start almost simultaneously.

Option 2:
Won't happen.

Option 3:
Hope you've trained with some disarm techniques and you head for BG1 first, because I really see that as the only "survivable" option. At a minimum, you're going to get cut, and there's probably not a good outcome for this either way.
 
#11 ·
+1 to Pete on awareness...

Anytime in the day or night that I enter a parking garage and always at night if I'm not at home, I have a Surefire in my weak side hand. I'm assuming this a dark scenario...

BG1 comes out of hiding, the light comes up to center of my chest and triggers in his face. Strong side is drawing as I shuffle towards my weak side in small steps. As my weapon clears, the muzzle comes up and at least two rounds come out on COM. Assuming the BG1 is going down, I pivot on to BG2 ( the guy behind and left) as he is the closest threat. If he is still interested in the dance, 2 rounds COM as the arms extend and I back up to get BG1 in my peripheral vision to see if there is movement. Assess BG3 and either tap him or, if he is losing interest/far enough for a pause, check BG1 with frontal vision to make sure he is really out of the fight.

Assuming the threats are neutralized, cover and call 911.

The best piece of advice, if I may, is the Surefire. In an Atlanta hotel parking garage, I lost situational awareness while messing with a kid and turned to face a guy that had come out from behind a Suburban with his briefcase. The light came up and I hit it. It was at night and semi-dark in the garage. He jerked his head so hard to avoid the light he banged his head into his truck right smartly. An embarrassing situation was made worse by an 8-year old howling in laughter, "Daddy, you made him bang his head!!!"
 
#12 ·
In an Atlanta hotel parking garage, I lost situational awareness while messing with a kid and turned to face a guy that had come out from behind a Suburban with his briefcase. The light came up and I hit it. It was at night and semi-dark in the garage. He jerked his head so hard to avoid the light he banged his head into his truck right smartly. An embarrassing situation was made worse by an 8-year old howling in laughter, "Daddy, you made him bang his head!!!"
Coulda been worse. You coulda shot him twice COM.
 
#13 ·
At the time, I wasn't legal to carry in Georgia or it would have been tragic instead of embarrassing. On the other hand, the responsibility of carrying more than a Surefire has made me MUCH more conscious of my surroundings and threats.

My instructor pilot used to say bad things about my mother (and he hadn't even met her) when I would 'get behind the airplane. His view of the world, and it has become mine, is that if you have to do something quickly, you are 'behind' the situation. It is true of driving, shooting, hunting, golf... etc. etc.

My instructor pilot would all of a sudden cut power as we were going out to the practice area and say,"You just lost power, where are you going to land?" If I said,"Uh...", he would say,"Huffines, you stupid son-of-*****! Are you trying to kill both of us?" That taught me to CONSTANTLY 'game' alternatives. Look at the farm ponds to keep track of wind direction. Keep track of where power lines are in the area below. Are there plowed fields? Are the fields plowed with the wind or cross wind? Where would I land now? Now? In five minutes?

I have extended that as part of self defense and awareness. Because in a given week, I may be in Denver or Cleveland or Boise or Knoxville, etc, I think in terms of 'what are the threats' and 'what would I do if'.

Rental cars and strange parking lots and garages are part of my daily grind. It keeps me aware in a new way that is kind of a fun game.

This is a great scenario BTW... the Kobyoshi Maru
 
#14 · (Edited)
JD, damned right. Cheat any way you can. They aren't fighting fair. Why should you?!

My only goal in this situation is to survive. As a wise man once said "We ain't makin' cornflakes here" - if there are three armed ones I don't think any good will come from the aftermath. Personally?

1. Throw the wallet to his face. Draw and fire while getting the hell off the X and moving past him. Turn and if either of the other two have so much as taken a step towards me then they get similar treatment.
2. Not happening. Ever.
3. "I've got more money in the car. Swear! Please don't kill me!" *weep cry sheep*

I'm 100% with JD on this one. Turning the momentum and initiative to yourself is paramount to your survival. I think Limatune's comment about "Death is not an excuse for not fighting back" applies here.
 
#15 ·
Primary goal, as is any SD situation is to survive (as intact as possible) and escape.

to the extent that I can predict my response...
Scenario 1: why fool with the wallet? He's expecting me to reach for something, he's just not going to see what he expected to see. Draw while exploding off the X. Shoot the guy with the gun and any/all of the others who act like they still intend to attack.

Scenario 2: Will never happen...I carry my gun LOADED!

Scenario 3: Unlikely as I carry 99.9% of the time. For that .1%, the action/reaction OODA-Loop thing works both ways. Take out the guy with the gun and then run like hell in a safe direction (preferably toward my vehicle where there WILL be a gun).
 
#16 ·
my bug lives right on top of my money clip (don't carry a back pocket wallet)
When I pull the wallet out of my front pocket, the bug will come out with it. 2 COM (as close as I can get weak handed) to the gun BG then I'm going to basically charge right through him to the nearest cover while drawing my 1911.
The 2 knife BGs are going to have to react to me shooting their "gun man" If they come after me, they'll get 230 grain HSTs..if they run..they run.
The BG with the 2 or 3 .380 holes in him will be covered with the 1911 until the good guys show.
If he tries to get back into the fight...so will I.

As far as having a empty chamber...only after I visit with the easter bunny and santa in a safe gun free zone :)

no gun...toss the wallet and charge him screaming like a madman in order to throw him off, then (unfortunately) I'm going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight
 
#22 ·
no gun...toss the wallet and charge him screaming like a madman in order to throw him off, then (unfortunately) I'm going to be bringing a knife to a gunfight
Viewed a little differently, he's the one that's stuck with a gun in what is now a knife fight :biggrin2:

This reminds me of a point I forgot to mention in my first post (and that Chuck Brick touched on).

For those that choose to follow the "no gun" signs, there are probably many more times that they face the possiblity of dealing with a threat while unarmed than there are for those who carry everywhere (except places with metal-detectors:wink:).
Scenarios like #3 in the OP just serve to further illustrate the NEED for some skills beyond merely being able to shoot. If you don't have your handgun, you have to be trained to deal with it. If we're not armed, we're now in H2H territory and things like gun-disarms and/or offensive knife skills become pretty darned important.
 
#17 ·
I've been in some form of martial arts for about 40 yrs (I'm that old?!?), and whether it's sparring with or without weapons against multiple opponents, one basic tactic always prevails: try to find the weakest/least threat, and hide behind that one from the rest of the team. In sparring, sometimes you don't even want to defeat him/her because you'd lose your shield - just hold him/her at bay.

With that in mind, let's analyze this situation:
There's only one way to get out - over something. Given the options (Clockwise: 1 guy w/gun, vehicle, 2 guys w/blades, or vehicle # 2), the fastest exit I can see is to go over the guy with the gun. That's the direction least expected by them (remember OODA?), thus the option that they are likely to comprehend and respond the slowest to. Might even scare the $#!+ out of them, and they'll leave ("D@mned crazy FOOL!"). You'd have a better chance trampling him than trying to wedge between two guys with blades, and if you went over a vehicle you'd land between them again - if you didn't get shot and/or grabbed and dragged down to . . ??. If you go through the punk with the gun, the others can't reach you past him. A 90-lb woman in heels can knock down a 200-lb thug if she hits hard, fast, and totally by surprise. Then draw, while he's momentarily confused. If you're lucky, he might even lose his gun if your attack is ferocious enough. Don't try to disarm the two with knives unless your name is Segal. :image035: Even then, as you are nonchalantly spreading whoop-@ss on the two, the first one will, with equal aplomb, shoot you from a safe distance. At the ranges you describe, gun or knife are equally deadly; play the lowest odds by taking out the one you can't outrun.

Part 2: No. Just - no.

Part 3: The gun is a moot point. In the car, in the gun safe, in your other pants, - moot.

Good mental exercise, thanks.

Stay safe,

Chuck Brick.
 
#18 ·
In the scenario you present, it sounds like you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't".
Not necessarily!

Part 3: The gun is a moot point. In the car, in the gun safe, in your other pants, - moot.
Why is not having a gun a moot point? One cannot carry a gun everywhere they go!

Good for those who said that point #2 would not happen.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
Why is not having a gun a moot point? One cannot carry a gun everywhere they go!
The gun, being inaccessible in the locked car, is a moot point. If you distract yourself by thinking about the gun in you car, at home, not in your reach for whatever reason, you're not focused on your present situation. It's non-productive, a moot point. Not worth wishing after when you already have a platefull.

Stay safe,

Chuck Brick.
 
#19 ·
I also wanted to add, the only way you'd get into this situation is by a lack of situational awareness.
Awareness can prevent 90% of things from happening... BUT... NOT EVERYTHING! This happens to be one of those times!

If I remember correctly, I did say that they may have been hiding. You can't just draw down on someone who magically appears.
 
#23 ·
Let's see, a guy with a gun pointed at you 5 feet away and 2 guys behind you with knives 5-6 feet away? Did I read that right? Considering a parking lot is one place you need to be on alert, you just got yourself in one big pickle. Your going to need a lot of luck no matter what you decide. This is one of those situations that people are going to come up with a plan of action but, just like in a fight, the plan lasts until the first punch is thrown. Ok, I'll play.
First of all, I never carry a gun without a round chambered. Second, if a guy comes out of no where in a parking lot, I assume he was hiding behind a car/van. He pops out just in front of me with a gun, I'm going to drill him between the eyes with a .32/.38 that is in my left hand, in my pocket. No gun? At 5 feet, I'm grabbing the gun hand and cutting it up his arm. He wouldn't have time to "ask" for my wallet. Hopefully, the two gentlemen with the knives behind me are not committed and take off running at this point. Either way, they are WAY too close with those knives. I've got to get space/obstacles between us. Gun or no gun, I'm getting past the first guy and getting between the cars. With a gun, I'll shoot the two gentlemen if they are coming. With a knife, I'm where I'd prefer to be, close in and confined and, possibly, with the first guys gun. My odds? With some luck, maybe 50-50.
If they were really just looking to rob someone and didn't expect a fight, it's a bad situation but you have a fair chance. If they are hardcore boogermen intent on killing you, it's a nightmare you'd be lucky to survive and I don't care what kind of games you play at "school".
 
#24 ·
Priority 1: SURVIVE!

BG 1 has gun, other two have knives and they are within 9 feet of me.

BAD situation.

In practice, with one attacker at 12 feet I can draw from concealment and fire JUST before he reaches me at a run, but that's my min. 11 feet and closer BG reaches me every time but that doesn't mean I don't have options.

I think my option would be faking.

They are expecting my compliance. They are expecting my fear and playing to their expectations just might get me out of that situation alive. My advantage is that they don't want me dead yet. If they wanted me dead they would have shot me and just taken my purse and called it a day. They may decide to kill me later, but right now I have an advantage that I'm only being THREATENED with death and not dead yet.

Things are looking up!

I carry my purse weak side, and depending on the layout, I don't know if I'll be able to just run (I have great endurance when I run but I'm not very fast).

I might fake compliance. I'll curl up on myself, whimpering, considering the man with the gun as my biggest threat at the moment but not wanting the men with the knives to get any closer because they can easily become my primary threats.

With my left hand I'll grab my purse, close to my chest, using it to conceal my draw from my right side. If I'm lucky I'll throw my purse at BG 2 and 3 and simultaneously draw and fire on BG 1 with the gun while stepping to the side to try to ensure that he won't shoot me in his surprise.

Since I know I'm not a fast runner, and again, depending on layout of the parking, I may turn instantly on BG 2 and 3 and do follow up shots.

First shot will probably be point shooting from retention, as well as follow up shots. If I can get to my sights, great. If I can't, there's not much missing at 9 ft and closer. When I scan and assess for potential follow up shots and more threats my gun will probably be up and extended. But point shooting is fine as long as it gets me out of there alive.

As to the question of whether or not I have that much confidence in my skills to perform to that level of intricacy... I believe that I do. I know how I can perform under stress, I also have great confidence in my ability to move and shoot. Furthermore, if I may say so myself, I have great timing in my follow up shots on multiple targets. I also know that I can point shoot pretty darn good at close distances.

At first, with such close proximity of the BGs, It's going to be one bullet per BG, then going back and assessing and adding bullets to 1, 2 and 3 until the threat has ended or until I see the opportunity and run and get away.

Tactical reload (though I've never been GREAT at these) and keep running.

Scenario 2: Never going to happen. If I have my gun on, there's one in the chamber, PERIOD!

Scenario 3: Perhaps I was in a court house or some place that I was not allowed to carry and I had to leave my gun in the car.

Again, Survival is my #1 priority.

If I was in a court house I might not even have my knives, but let's say for this scenario I was some place where a gun was not allowed but my knives were okay and I'm still armed with the knives.

First order of business: Get away from the guy with the gun.

In first scenario I through my purse at BGs 2 and 3, moved and shot BG 1. In this scenario I throw my purse at BG 1, draw my Ka-Bar and any one of my other pocket knives.. one in each hand, run like the dickens, cutting and slashing, bobbing and weaving the entire time.

Do I have confidence in my ability to scream, run, cut and slash? Yeah. I'm pretty confident that I can do that.
 
#26 ·
More than likely.

Lima, please no offense, but if you can draw from concealment and engage an aggressor in a mad rush from 12 feet before he gets ya, your either extremely fast or your training partner is very slow. I have a hard time doing it from 20 feet and I'm not that slow. That lesson stuck with me and is the reason I started carrying an easy access, offhand BUG. In coat/jacket weather, nothing is faster.
Your idea about curling up and whimpering and then coming out shooting is excellent and probably makes more sense than most of the posts I've read so far. It would probably make them overconfidant and give you an element of surprise. Great idea!
 
#27 ·
Man…talk about not watching what’s going on around ya; But it could happen to any of us. :22a:

While this has never happen to me, I have always played with the idea of pitching the wallet.

Possibly on the ground in front or over the head of BG 1, and as his attention is directed at the wallet.

Draw and fire two rounds in his chest, while walking toward him.

And depending on where he is holding his gun, I may try to grab it, or block it with weak hand while firing one handed.

I would then turn and see if BG 2 & 3 wanted some.

Depending on how much experience they have I would presume that once the shots started BG 2 & 3 will be stunned and just stand there and/or take off.

In ether case, we are only talking about 3 or so seconds from the time, the first shot was fired, and there reaction time, would give me a window of opportunity.

I always have a round in the pipe, and I always carry.

And while I may be 25 years out of practice and shape, I do have black belts in two forms of martial arts, and it funny how all those years of training comes back as almost an instinct when needed.

But, I will add that when the dust settles, I’ll need to find a bathroom to clean my britches out.
 
#29 ·
There are some pretty decent responses here! But, here is my favorite thing so far...

A golf course is a waste of what could be a perfectly good gun range.
Now that is one of THE BEST things I've ever heard!!!
 
#30 ·
LOL, I'd hope your not that slow. Must be good to have a training partner at home. I'm not picking on Lima. I think she has a great head on her shoulders and had an excellent idea about cowering and fighting.
I'd hate to think anyone would try to outdraw a guy with a knife from 5-6 feet away, let alone 2 of them behind you. Moving and getting space/obstacles between you is your only chance. If your shooting them as they are on you, it's too late. The idea is to survive and that's going to be hard to do with punctures and lacerations to organs and arteries. Doesn't really matter if you shoot them after the fact. Honestly, up close, knives scare me as much and probably more than guns do. These what if scenarios can be kind of interesting.
 
#32 ·
Must be good to have a training partner at home.
You have no idea, lets just say that grappling practice can get interesting :image035:



kpw said:
I'd hate to think anyone would try to outdraw a guy with a knife from 5-6 feet away, let alone 2 of them behind you.
This is where things get cloudy, again going back the the average 21 foot rule, you always see is a LEO scenario, with the firearm in plain view, the BG CAN SEE what's being reached for. If the BG had planned for confronting an armed victim, they'd just shoot you and riffle through your corpse. The key to this scenario is faking your way to the gun, taking out the BG with the ranged weapon, and putting as much distance between you and the BGs with the contact weapon, as soon as BG1 with the gun is hit, I'm gone! unless BGs 2 and 3 are champion knife throwers, I should be OK.

Not to mention that all the two guys behind me are going to see is me going for a wallet and all of a sudden there's a very loud, disorientating, earth shattering KA-Boom of a .45 ventilating their freind...What do the "homies" do during a drive by where unexpected gunshots occur? They hit the dirt, while they're doing that, I'm tripple timing it to cover. When they figure out what just happend, all they're hopefully going to see is their buddy lying on the deck with a pair of .45 caliber sized sucking chest wounds, and I doubt that any home boy mugger is going to give chase after that.:bier:

kpw said:
Moving and getting space/obstacles between you is your only chance. If your shooting them as they are on you, it's too late. The idea is to survive and that's going to be hard to do with punctures and lacerations to organs and arteries.
Exactly! But in order to do that, you have to clear the way to get that distance, and you still have the ranged attack of BG1 to worry about.:yup:

kpw said:
Doesn't matter if you shoot them after the fact. Honestly, up close, knives scare me as much and probably more than guns do. These what if scenarios can be kind of interesting.
Damn skippy, that was the one flaw in Lima's scenario, hanging around to see what BG 2 and 3 are doing, there's a time for flight, and a time for fight, and we all need to know which to do when, and in what combination.

By expediting my rear away from BGs 2 and 3, I can create the needed distance and choose a fighting ground of my chooising IF they give chase.


I also have to disagree placeing the purse on her chest to cover the draw from the right side, BG one is going to see this, and wonder what's up as he sees her hand going AWAY from the purse, he might spook and shoot early. This is the one time where purse carry could actually work, she can fake pulling the wallet from her purse and come out shooting while running. Maybe Valentines day will bring Lima a lighter .380 as a strictly purse gun to supplement her Wilson.:image035:

Limatunes said:
I believe that I do. I know how I can perform under stress, I also have great confidence in my ability to move and shoot.
This is one thing I was happy to see in this thread. If you don't bellieve you can win, you're probably going to loose.

limatunes said:
Furthermore, if I may say so myself, I have great timing in my follow up shots on multiple targets.
See the bit on flight vs. fight above.

limatunes said:
I also know that I can point shoot pretty darn good at close distances.
Again here's a key feature, the ability to be flexible on where you choose to shoot from: see the bit on sterotypical 21' rule. The quicker the gun can be put into action against BG1, the better.
 
#34 ·
1. What is your primary goal in this situation?
I am going to survive.I will do that by killing all three scuzballs.The only difference is that they don't know that yet...thus that is to my advantage.

What are you going to do and how are you going to accomplish it.

That is, if you move, what direction are you going to move and with what footwork? Are you going to try and create distance? If using your gun, are you going to use a two handed shooting platform with your arms extended? Provide as many details as you can envision in this situation as to what you would do.
Drawing and shooting with the two handed arms extended platform is a waste of time and tactically unsound, not to mention slow.

I will draw and shoot from retention. I have have to turn the holster and shoot through it I will. If I draw I will clear and turn the gun into the immediate threat,shooting the one with the gun. I will run directly toward him, and use him for shielding if he is still standing. If not I will run over him and while attempting to put a vehicle in between me and the two that are about to die with knives, shooting behind me if I must. If they are dedicated enough or stupid enough to pursue, running in between two parked cars will lessen their avenues of approach and funnel them into a shooting lane, a kill zone where I will be standing aiming my handgun at them and more than likely shooting into their still standing carcasses.

A situation like that requires thinking out of the box, because you are screwed. Knowing that requires extreme measures. Getting in between two parked vehicles and opening a door will slow them enough and prevent an immediate route to you.Now they are on the defensive, because YOU have the ranged weapon, not them.

Of course, much of that depends on getting in between two cars. If I cant make it that far, the man with the gun goes first. The other targets will determine who dies first. In any case, whether I die or not is up to the Creator. If that happens so be it. If it does, it wont be for lack of a fight and more than likely I will leave a trail of hot brass wherever they find me laying.

I don't give up and I will cheat. If you bring the fight to me, I have every intention of winning, cause I am stubborn like that.If that means picking up a shopping cart and hurling it that is what I will do. If I have to get underneath a truck to keep from getting cut, I will. If I have to jump in the back of a pickup truck to gain elevation and some cover, I will. If I have to run across the hood and roofs of cars to keep from getting cut I will. If I have to jump in an unlocked vehicle and lock it I will and I will shoot you in the face when you try to break in. If I happen to see a stray cat, I will pick it up and throw it in your face. A rock, a discarded bottle,my belt, even sand or gravel will become my weapon. Or course,all of the above means that I have run out of ammo.

If I die, it certainly wont be for lack of trying to survive.
 
#35 ·
I would say, "You're making me mad. You won't like me when I'm mad." Then I would turn green as my muscles burst out of my shirt and I would smash them.

Or, just as believable, I would take a quick step forward (action beats reaction), and with my left hand pull BG #1's gun off line to my left while kicking him in the nuts as hard as I can with my right foot, then do a 180, still to the left, trapping his gun arm under my right armpit while transferring my grip on his gun hand from my left to my right hand as I turned and then I would make BG #1's trigger finger shoot BGs 2 and 3. Then I would 180 back toward my right and hit BG #1 in the right temple with my right elbow. Then I'd go buy a lottery ticket.
 
#38 ·
I would toss my hybrid wallet – Its half wallet half flash bang.

Or

If I felt that I was going to get shot by them at better then 70%
– I would do what Brian’s Fight Video teaches.
During the execution of the training I’ve learned - I believe I might get hit by gun fire at about 70% in that setup.
I would try and get as many of my rounds at the attackers before I was out of the fight.
I’d end up somewhere rear flank of the gun man.
So if I can even things back up fast enough by getting hits on all of them, maybe that would be realistic ending
 
#39 · (Edited)
I won't answer as to what to do if I don't have a round chambered. That's just silly. It just feels like putting on my pants without zipping up. :rolleyes:

So, I have my gun, ready to fire.

1. What is your primary goal in this situation?
The part of me that is married and wants to go home tells me my primary goal is just that: make it home.

The more defiant, angry at the situation part also wants the secondary goal of hurting the BGs. :redface: Insofar as Goal 2 doesn't conflict with Goal 1, I will attempt to accomplish both.

2. What are you going to do and how are you going to accomplish it. That is, if you move, what direction are you going to move and with what footwork? Are you going to try and create distance? If using your gun, are you going to use a two handed shooting platform with your arms extended? Provide as many details as you can envision in this situation as to what you would do.
If he's looking through my wallet, I think that implies his hands are full and his attention elsewhere. This is go time. He's close enough just get the gun out and start shooting as quick as possible. Draw and fire moving forward toward the BG in front quickly, to avoid getting stabbed (or shot) in the back. When he goes down, about the time you clear the trap, you wheel on the two behind and take as much cover as you can. If the BGs behind are gunless, they should be bugging out. If they are bearing arms, evaluate and fire as needed. Be glad you're packing an auto.

3. You are without your gun because it is in your car.
Hmmm... Good to think about ahead of time. Since I teach, this could happen in my school parking lot. Not sure what options there are other when he's looking through the wallet, throw your coffee in his eyes, kick dirt in his eyes, then just bum rush him, get his gun off axis, then use all the violence and rage you can possibly muster. Gouge his eyes, destroy his throat, obliterate his testicles. Quickly. Then, probably your best bet is to run like hell if you can. Otherwise you probably need his gun to defend against his buddies. This is way tougher than if you're armed. I think I heard it here, if you're fighting fair, your tactics suck.

Mel
 
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