September 1st, 2005 10:31 AM
So, QK, you're a pot stirrer eh? Well........it worked out pretty good didn't it. It made me re-think why I believe tactical reloads have their place.
September 1st, 2005 11:09 AM
Wow! This is my thing! It is "the" thing that befuddles me more than anything in the world - well that might be a little over stated. So, here's my thing: first, I use to faithfully carry an extra mag; I didn't even like to call it extra, but standard SOP. After a while I began to wonder if it's as important as we might think. Here's why.
Originally Posted by QKShooter
If I carry a revolver that holds 5 -6 six rounds and a reload for it, I'm perceived as well armed, but if I carry a Sig 229 DAK with 14 rounds in it and no spare mag, I'm perceived as lacking because I can't reload. I have more rounds in the Sig than the revolver plus a reload.
On top of that, the revolver is sloooow to reload. I challange anybody to go out cold and do a revolver speed reload the first time in 6 seconds. The ususal response is "Well, if six, so and so caliber rounds don't get the job done, then I'm in deep #### anyway." or something of the sort.
So if 5-6 rounds should do from the "revolver" logic, why is it even an issue whether we carry a reload for a gun that has 14 - 17 rounds in it? Do we have any idea, what the chances are that we'll have time or opportunity to reload in a gunfight?
Well, logic would tell us the fewer rounds in the gun, the more likely we will need to reload. But "need" doesn't mean we'll have time or opportunity. OTOH, if I have a gun with 14 or more rounds in it, it becomes highly unlikely that I will need to reload.
September 1st, 2005 01:17 PM
As I think I referred to earlier - the key word is ''time'' - if all hell breaks lose then I expect we go to slide lock - not much choice. But for sure if there is breathing space - maybe brought about by finding good cover then the tac reload makes total sense. The method used will in the end I think be determined entirely by circumstances.
My lack of spare mag is usually because so home/office bound - and even sometimes when out I only have what the gun has - if tho I was in a heavy pop' area, city even - you could be sure I'd then have two spares on board.
Some of my thinking in my local area is based on - if 15+1 won't cut it then - byebye world probably!
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
- a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
September 1st, 2005 01:28 PM
Boy you said it P95, personal defense tactics must be situation driven! I think the tactical reload isn't the "demon" here, it's the misuse, misunderstanding, or misapplication of it.
Originally Posted by P95Carry
Plus, as if I haven't posted enough about this, I haven't found the tactical reload to be so difficult as suggested in the article. I do them with 1911s, Sig and H&K double stacks, etc. I don't see what's so hard. The thing that's hard for me is clearing a double feed.
September 1st, 2005 02:29 PM
'Tactical?' Reloads. Do not do them, do not teach them.
Only carry one spare mag..or one reload for each gun carried.
Much prefer an NY reload--no fumbles...so I carry multiple guns.
Do not do IDPA, USPSA, just because these organizations do not allow the obivious..multiple guns.
September 1st, 2005 02:49 PM
I've heard about the NY reload. When it's time to "reload", what do you do with the gun that's empty?
Originally Posted by KC135
September 3rd, 2005 01:24 AM
The tactical reload never made sense to me as I lose track of how many rounds I have fired when I'm shooting pins, and I am always surprised when the gun locks open or I finish the frame before I lock open. IF I have the chance to do a reload before I empty the mag, I'm either dropping the old mag, or catching it and shoving it into my pocket, then grabbing the other mag and slamming it home.
I carry a spare mag for two very unlikely reasons - (1) the gun jams, the whap-tilt-rack drill doesn't work and I still have time to swap mags (right...) or (2) I've fired 8 rounds, the deadly threat is still imminent and I still have time to reload (again, right...).
You know, a BUG or NY reload is looking better all the time.
On the NY reload, if you have lots of time and no threat, you reholster. If you don't, drop the damn thing, just like a magazine, and pick it up later.
September 3rd, 2005 03:23 AM
1952 - 2006
Great thread guys.
I agree that the tac reload has it's place but it shouldn't be a requirement for a course of fire that is supposed to simulate real life situations. IMHO once you enter a course of fire the safe handling, manipulation and reloading are all your decisions to make. That's the way it's going to happen in real life.
QK I love the reference to the IM. It IS classical 'real life'.
I'm one of those who carries one spare mag along with my Surefire 6P. I carry a single stack Kimber CDP Compact with one seven round mag seated and one spare 8 round mag with a 3/4" bumper pad, (that mother is GOING to seat). I'm in the 1.5 and 2 second reload club.
I've always thought that you should carry more ammo, ie extra mags or speed loaders, strips etc., If I carried a double stack high cap gun I would probable still carry at least one extra mag. I would prefer to carry two spare mags with the Kimber but on my skinny butt that starts getting a little to bulky with the Surefire as well. I consider my Surefire to be as potentially potent a tool as an extra mag, so for me it's a trade-off.
Heroes are people who do what has to be done, when it has to be done, regardless of the consequences
"I like when the enemy shoots at me; then I know where the ******** are and can kill them."
DE OPPRESSO LIBER
September 3rd, 2005 06:03 PM
While extra magazines/speed loaders will work if time allows, they will only work if the firearm involved is still operational.
Originally Posted by acparmed
There will come a time when it is not...and I hope it never happens to any of our members...but it happens.
September 3rd, 2005 06:27 PM
Carrying multiple firearms is a great idea & (for sure) greatly increases the chances of a successful outcome.
An instant catastrophic weapon failure...that sure would be a nightmare situation to find yourself in...right when you really need something to go BANG.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
September 4th, 2005 01:49 PM
Wow, guys, no offense but, Iím having a hard time taking a NY reload seriously if it requires me to throw down my main gun because it is in slide lock rather than reload it.
Letís think about this. Does this take into account that we would be throwing away a perfectly good gun thatís perfectly useable, that could be returned to service by simply reloading it? Does it take into account that we could pull our BUG and to our surprise and horror, it doesnít go bang? Now what? Does it take into account that the BUG might run out of ammo and we might just revert to our NY reload training and throw down our BUG too? In a gunfight, wouldnít it be a disadvantage to be in a habit of throwing away a gun when it goes empty? What about that day you are ďoffĒ duty and donít have your BUG? Will you still reflexively throw down your gun when it goes empty? Or do we have multiple reload strategies?
And to a lesser degree, does it matter where the gun winds up? We may not be able to recover it because ďsomebodyĒ found it before we could get back to it. Does it matter if the gun winds up going down a staircase, off a dock into the river, off a porch, etc.?
Hereís something else to think about. Itís been proposed that if we have time, we put the gun back in its holster. If we have time to do that, then weíve got plenty of time to speed reload which results in us still having two guns. But more importantly, the NY reload at least doubles the complexity of our reload. One time back to the holster, another time throw down. It seems to me that we are setting ourselves up for a mistake - we holster when we should throw down. In any event, our mind has to make an additional decision under duress.
I guess Iím not being very creative today, but Iím having a very difficult time coming up with a scenario where I have time to throw down a gun and draw another but I donít have time to speed reload. But I can see a scenario where our Glock runs dry and we have thrown it down (I canít even believe Iím saying that) as we move to better cover/position. One of the BGís Glock has malfunctioned and heís out of the fight, but there is our Glock laying three feet from him with the slide locked open. He grabs our Glock that we threw down and loads his mag into our gun and he is back in the fight.
Then, thereís the training issue. Do we really go to the range and practice NY reloads the way we do speed reloads? Do we really do 20 reloads by returning the slide-locked gun to the holster; BTW, will it stay in the holster that way? And then do we do another 20 reloads by throwing the gun down? By comparison, in the time and effort it takes to do the two variations of one NY reload, we could have done 40 speed reloads. Which is better, 20 throw downs and 20 reholsters or 40 speed reloads? Then thereís this: the gun is in slide lock, what if we miss the reholster?
Iíve taken up way too much space and your valuable time, so Iíll close and leave you with these thoughts. I am willing and have done easily a thousand speed reloads. Would you be willing to throw your gun down, on something soft and protective of course, a thousand times and then bet your life on it? Is that really, the best reload?
The final thought. If I carry a revolver, I start out with low capacity and very slow reloads. It is only logical that the fewer rounds in the gun, the more likely we will need to reload. In this setting a NY reload, with retention, makes sense.
Last edited by Tangle; September 4th, 2005 at 06:50 PM.
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