Outdraw this...

Outdraw this...

This is a discussion on Outdraw this... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In the past we've had a number of discussions about dealing with an attacker armed with a knife. Many of these discussions are plagued with ...

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Thread: Outdraw this...

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Outdraw this...

    In the past we've had a number of discussions about dealing with an attacker armed with a knife. Many of these discussions are plagued with comments like "never bring a knife to a gun fight" or some other (equally dumb) catch-phrase.

    I ran across this video earlier and wanted to share it. While it is obviously a staged demonstration of some kind, I feel that it does a pretty good job of showing the type of attack energy and intensity that will more than likely be present when/if you're ever attacked by a knife. Notice that the attacker covers the distance (looks to be about 6 feet) and stabs the "victim" in less than a second.
    Brian@ITC posted a great video a while back in this thread where he showed how fast someone with a knife could attack. I just wanted to throw this one out as well since it shows a continuous attack against an actual person.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibGyGG3X4PI

    Before anyone says "well he didn't even try to move, I'd move laterally (or wherever)" or "I'd use my weak-hand to fend him off while drawing with my dominant hand" consider this. Do you honestly believe that you can deal with that kind of energy or stop that attack with one hand. If you try he's just going to knock your hand out of the way and continue doing the "sewing machine" on your guts. Furthermore, if you simply try to retreat or even, the tactical favorite, "move laterally," he's probably just going to run you over and we're back to the abdominal sewing machine thing.

    As a number of people on this board (myself included) have stated many times. We must have empty-hand skills as part of our toolbox. Your pistol will not always be an available option and it may not always be the best option depending on the dynamics of the situation.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Pete Zaria's Avatar
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    Holy...

    Yes, this kind of footage really makes you think. There's very little even the best-trained of us could have done to avoid this attack, so the only answer is... *drumroll*....

    Situational Awareness.

    I think that's the real message of demonstrations like this - assuming this video was a demo, that is. I hope so.
    If you let someone with bad intentions get that close and you don't already have your gun in your hand, you're up the creek with a very blatant lack of paddles.
    You just have to hope to God that you're not the target of some freak-occurrence truly random stabbing. If this guy didn't show the target any warning signs at all.... wow. Scary thought.
    Thanks for the post.

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.
    - Margaret Mead


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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array f8lranger4x4's Avatar
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    When you take certain shooting courses they will use a static line dummy you have to shoot down usualy it is filled with a hook you have to shoot of inside of it. It is supposed to simulte a knife attack from 21 feet, this drill realy gave me the wake up. Within 21 feet with a knife is a real deadly threat.

  4. #4
    Distinguished Member Array morintp's Avatar
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    I have been stabbed, or at least he attempted to stab me in the stomach. I was able to catch the knife with my weak hand. Well, actually it was my weak hand's thumb. It sliced my thumb in half lengthways down to the knuckle and took about 15 stitches to put it back together.

    I know it will hurt a bit, but I also know I have it in me to stop a knife with my bare hands and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. I'd much rather have my hand sewn back together again than try to hold my guts in with a healthy hand.

  5. #5
    Member Array airbornerangerboogie's Avatar
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    Pretty impressive, but....
    Guy on the right had a knife in his hand, the other guy should have had a gun (at the ready) in his hand, not a coat. Guy on right makes forward motion, guy on left put 2 rds center mass followed by a 3rd to the head.
    We can all think of scenarios in which this could happen, the next step is how would you defend yourself in them?

    I have used and taught HapKiDo for many years, the art of knife fighting (defense and offense) is part of weapons training. You learn real fast that in a blade attack you're not going to come out without getting cut or stabbed "just a reality check". We would be in deep doo-doo if our situational awareness was slack enough to allow a situation to occur where an agressor can attack in the manner shown in the video.
    Just my .02
    “Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today.” James Dean
    Phil (NRA Member and Vietnam Vet)
    ------------- My CCW ----------------
    No Guns Here Boss
    I gave them to the naked Pigmy's in New Guinea

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Allot of study’s have shown that a BG with knife at close ranger, who knows what he is doing with it, is far more dangerous than a gun.

    YouTube - Full Contact Krav Maga - English

    You may want to check out this Youtube video and then search other related videos.

    At best, it’s hard to remember to use your feet, or week side hand at the same time you’re trying to draw; especially when ya only have a couple seconds.

  7. #7
    Member Array Brian@ITC's Avatar
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    We must have empty-hand skills as part of our toolbox. Your pistol will not always be an available option and it may not always be the best option depending on the dynamics of the situation.
    KenpoTex has it EXACTLY RIGHT!!! This is precisely why we teach things the way that we do. ALL of our students who take the Advanced Pistol Fighting Course will learn this FIRST HAND!!! And, they will tell you that going straight for your gun is NOT always a good idea! After all, THE GUN IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO YOUR PROBLEM!!!

    KenpoTex, thanks for the new video clip which helps illustrate the harsh reality that a lot of people do not like to think about.
    Brian K. LaMaster
    President, Innovative Tactical Concepts, LLC
    Instructor, Counter Force International
    http://www.right2defend.com
    http://www.modernwarriortalk.com

  8. #8
    kpw
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    VIP Member Array kpw's Avatar
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    Scary, ain't it? Not sure what the vic was doing playing matador with his coat, though.

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    VIP Member Array aus71383's Avatar
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    Hmm interesting outlook.

    Austin

  10. #10
    Member Array Logan5's Avatar
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    A few years ago I was talking with a LEO while I was enhancing some surveillance video of a robbery. In the discussion I disagreed with him on drawing on man with a knife at about 14 feet away. He said you got a 1 foot ruler? I got him one and we stepped into a large room and he went about 14 feet a way from me - he said pretend you got a holstered gun and when I move you draw and say bang. I told him you’ll get about five feet before I get you. The officer said “ready?”
    Then in a surprising burst he charged at me - I was just raising my arm when he put the ruler at my neck. It was a big shock & surprise to me.
    People in the office where pulling pens & rulers on me the rest of the day.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Good stuff and 100% correct, if you're jumped by a black belt. A skilled knife fighter is a truly fearsome opponent. The good news is that most thugs are not skilled knife fighters. They will come in, but not as fast or as explosively. They will thrust, but with poor technique. Not to say that they aren't dangerous, but there will usually be signs from your untrained thug if you were paying attention at all.

    The empty-hand skills will allow you to create the space or disrupt your assailant long enough to get to your gun or other weapon. This is also why I tell my friends to pack a fixed-blade knife instead of a folder. Just grip it, rip it, and thrust it until they stop.

  12. #12
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    Good stuff and 100% correct, if you're jumped by a black belt. A skilled knife fighter is a truly fearsome opponent. The good news is that most thugs are not skilled knife fighters. They will come in, but not as fast or as explosively. They will thrust, but with poor technique. Not to say that they aren't dangerous, but there will usually be signs from your untrained thug if you were paying attention at all.

    The empty-hand skills will allow you to create the space or disrupt your assailant long enough to get to your gun or other weapon. This is also why I tell my friends to pack a fixed-blade knife instead of a folder. Just grip it, rip it, and thrust it until they stop.
    The problem is a lot of "thugs" get plenty of training in juvy or prison. It may not have a technical name or the orchestrated moves of well known martial arts, but it's been proven time and again on the yard and on the street. Many of them have been stabbed or shot before so you ain't gonna scare them too easily. Cowards? Some of these guys will try to take on multiple armed LEOs when cornered. Not too cowardly there. Assume everyone you face is the most dangerous person alive. If you don't, your going to underestimate too many of them. In that situation above, if you don't have something in your hands to begin with, your going at it empty handed. Unless you have the speed and space to turn and run, your probably going to get cut. How bad and how much is where your "skill set" comes into play. Honestly, thinking otherwise is Dojo thinking or Hollywood thinking as I used to hear often.

  13. #13
    Member Array RidemCowboy's Avatar
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    I heard someone say before that the first rule of being in a knife fight is you WILL get cut, the winner is the one who gets cut least.

    Not a very heart warming video or thought but that's the mindset you have to have.
    <Yep that's really me rounding up a herd

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps
    Good stuff and 100% correct, if you're jumped by a black belt. A skilled knife fighter is a truly fearsome opponent. The good news is that most thugs are not skilled knife fighters. They will come in, but not as fast or as explosively. They will thrust, but with poor technique. Not to say that they aren't dangerous, but there will usually be signs from your untrained thug if you were paying attention at all.
    I disagree...from the footage I've seen of various prison attacks and other knife attacks by "untrained" individuals, this is exactly the type of attack energy you can probably expect. It doesn't have to be "pretty martial-arts technique" in order to work. As KPW mentioned, many of these guys have plenty of experience which counts for a lot more than theoretical training.

    here are some videos that show actual attacks:
    LiveLeak.com - Bloke Attacks Bouncers With Knife
    LiveLeak.com - Violant Attack Stabbing Caught on Security Footage
    LiveLeak.com - Teen is Randomly Attacked by Knife in Russia
    LiveLeak.com - Nazi Skinhead Fatally Stabs a Man in a Stairwell
    LiveLeak.com - Stabbing Caught On Tape (starts at 3:45)

    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps
    The empty-hand skills will allow you to create the space or disrupt your assailant long enough to get to your gun or other weapon.
    Agreed, but only if you actually have good empty hand skills.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Ok, KenpoTex, the energy of the attack wasn't my discussion. I was discussing the technique involved in the attack. Yes, a knife fight, which I have unfortunately been in the receiving end of a few times, is a nasty bit of business and they do indeed come in fast and hard provided they don't hesitate or dance around a bit first, which I was fortunate enough to have happen because I was aware of the situation and let them know on no uncertain terms that I knew something was up.
    My point was how the initial video had a guy who was doing the knifing was tracking the target perfectly, pivoting to meet the target as they fell, keeping the elbow in and really pistoning the knife in and out, and maintaining perfect distance and pressure on the target as they backpedaled and eventually fell.
    I've seen videos like these too, and a few knifings myself, and that level of excellent combination of distance, technique and explosiveness doesn't happen very often, IRL. Those videos you just linked me to, and most of the others I've seen, simply do not demonstrate the level of martial skill that the first posted video displayed. This fact was my only point.
    You make excellent points and I applaud your realistic, hard-hitting discussion of the topic. I was only trying to add a bit of my own experience into the discussion (and managed to sound like a butthead while I was at it).

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