Possible hero or scapegoat?

This is a discussion on Possible hero or scapegoat? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What state does this shooting occur within? This is critical information to know in order to make a call. - Janq...

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Thread: Possible hero or scapegoat?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    What state does this shooting occur within?
    This is critical information to know in order to make a call.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
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    It depends on the State. In Tennessee, You cannot be charged, even though your were carrying in a no carry zone. As for the school expelling you, I seriously doubt they would have the gonads to even think about it.
    Jack dog

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Rex View Post
    After you check to see if he is dead ...
    IMO, that step is better left to the cavalry, who will have the ability to perform the check, ensure safety/security while doing so. Doing it solo, this situation can go wildly wrong in an instant, if the BG is still kicking. Best, by far, to maintain distance, keep your wits, and call for the cavalry.

    ... you call 911 and inform them of what happened. You let them know that you returned fire and killed the guy.
    I would report the attack against my life and that the attacker was now subdued and awaiting the arrival of police. I wouldn't know the health status of the attacker, as I'd be maintaining suitable distance until the pro's arrived to take over. That all would be the literal truth. It would also be safest for me. It would avoid the risk of saying too much (ie, "I killed the guy"). It would also avoid putting myself in harm's way by worring over the BG's medical needs prior to the cavalry arriving.

    ... CPL ... on campus ... a gun free zone ... killed a guy that was shooting students ... What can you expect to happen? Murder charges?
    Now you're getting the picture. Some places are lunatic crazy, like that. Some of the more insane places (NYC, downtown DC come to mind) would likely tie your noogies around your neck on principle, alone, despite the good outcome. Anything is possible for good samaritans. There's a saying, based on how often such things go ill for good sams: no good deed goes unpunished. Caution is due. At the very least, taking the law into your own hands in a place you're not even legally allowed to be at that moment (carrying) is seen just that way, in some places, good outcome or not.

    If you are carrying in a place that you are not to carry and neutralize a BG that has shot other people, can you expect to have the book thrown at you...
    You should expect anything up to and including exactly that, yes. Particuarly if you knew, in advance, that your carrying at that place and time was unlawful. In such a situation, at the very least, the ball is no longer in your court, if caught. Depends on your state as to whether this is a misdemeanor, felony or just an administrative bump of sorts.

    Some would argue: better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. And so it is, if it comes to the simple choice of life over death. However, better still is to not put yourself in the position of being judged for knowingly and wilfully turning a blind eye to one's own crimes, for crimes they are deemed in the eyes of the community that has passed the laws.

    My option is to not be there in the first place, assuming I know in advance that the place is denied to me as a carrier. Will save me a lot of grief, should I be outed for whatever reason. Plus, it's the right thing to do, avoiding such places. Until the law changes, so be it. Should I find myself in a situation blowing sideways that requires a lethal response to survive it, I will absolutely do whatever is needed to survive it. I will also rest assured that my actions were necessary and justified. What chips fall after that are what they are, and the number and severity of those isn't my call.

    That said, in this current climate, I'd be willing to bet that even in places of insanity with this sort of thing, the recent realities of multiple body bag encounters has softened the posture against the idea of people taking action. Finding myself on a jury, I would have a very tough time seeing someone's measured response in a deadly encounter against multiple murderers (as in a school shooting) as a bad thing.

    I also live in Oregon. There are precious few places where carrying is unlawful. Schools are one of those places perfectly acceptible for carry. Though, if a student or employee that school, expulsion or being fired is the response that should be expected, in spite of Oregon's preemption law. (ie, Shirley Katz lawsuit in Medford for right to carry as faculty member, which her school district is fighting tooth and nail. In her case, if she carries and is caught, she's fired and doesn't eat while she presses her case. About what many can expect, in similar situations.)
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmarcustrucker View Post
    Getting into politics is the way to go. Fight from within. Good hypothetical question, though.
    That really is the key idea. Universities are highly political entities; the consequences of your actions would depend on how embarrassing it could be for the Unv. Period. End of story.

    If you saved lives, and weren't "totally black" (IOW your only violation was the school's no-carry policy) and depending on the state, you might have a conference with the President and Dean of Students, and nothing more...or it could go to expulsion and endangerment charges.

    Essentially, it boils down to what you feel the lives of those around you are worth. In all honesty, it would vary with the group, personally.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    Self-defense doesn't change just because you're in a gun free zone.

    Would you face charges for carrying in a gun free zone? Absolutely.
    That's what I'm thinking.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    You might not be charged with murder, but you most definitely will be charged with carrying in a gun-free zone. You'll also be sued by the BG's family, and probably lose your house, your car, your job....
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  8. #22
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwhall57 View Post
    You might not be charged with murder, but you most definitely will be charged with carrying in a gun-free zone. You'll also be sued by the BG's family, and probably lose your house, your car, your job....
    Is that what would happen in a self-defense shooting in VA? I'll add them to my list of states not to live in...
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  9. #23
    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    The worst case scenario would mean getting expelled, charged with gun posession in a gun-free-zone and then sued by the BGs family.

    The best case scenario would be school administrators and the DA saying the ends justifies the means and all is forgiven. The realistic outcome probably lies somewhere in between.

    Bottom line, don't carry on campus unless you are prepared for the worst case scenario.

  10. #24
    Member Array gwlammers's Avatar
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    Always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

  11. #25
    Member Array T-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stirling XD View Post
    Bottom line, don't carry on campus unless you are prepared for the worst case scenario.
    Wouldnt carring on campus have you prepared for the worst case scenario? I know its all a common sense thing and person has to do what they have to do....

    If you are doing nothing wrong, you dont have to worry about BS happening....

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwlammers View Post
    Always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
    ...and establish a savings account for a good attorney!
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  13. #27
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    1. "prison is better than death, despite what some say."

    Not all say it: it depends on the prison, length of sentence and roomie.

    Note: If you are dead, you won't know the difference.


    2. "Always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6." Sighhhhh


    3. "The worst case scenario would mean getting expelled, charged with gun posession [sic] in a gun-free-zone and then sued by the BGs family."

    NO, the worst case scenario would be all that, and/or being rendered a quadraplegic, or similar injury. (Also, see #1).


    "If you are doing nothing wrong, you dont have to worry about BS happening...." Dreamer.


    Damned if you do, damned if you don't (carry)!


    Murphy's Law: If anything can go wrong, it will.

    O'Tooles Commentary on Murphy's Law: Murphy was an optimist.



    "Bottom line, don't carry on campus unless you are prepared for the worst case scenario." Wisest words yet!
    You cannot predict the outcome of this scenario: the Fates will decide.

    (Serious thoughts, but WAY too much time on my hands)
    Seeking Knowledge, Hoping for Wisdom

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    ...Schools are one of those places perfectly acceptible for carry. Though, if a student or employee that school, expulsion or being fired is the response that should be expected, in spite of Oregon's preemption law. ...
    In Virginia, same thing for almost all colleges: anyone with a permit can carry legally at Virginia Tech. If they're discovered and they're an employee, they can expect to lose their job; students can expect to be expelled.

    Kinda like where I work: it is a bit of an open question as to whether the sign and employee handbook constitute a full warning (so far as trespassing is concerned), but I am QUITE CONVINCED that I would lose my job.

    In her case, if she carries and is caught, she's fired and doesn't eat while she presses her case.
    ...and my family doesn't eat, or have electricity, or meds... Considering that possible outcome and the fact that few people in our quiet town are EVER attacked, I choose to disarm when at work. Would I change my mind if I were under a threat like hers or lived in [insert big dangerous city name]? Quite possibly, and I would certainly try to move. We need to consider all sorts of threats: a BG with a gun is what brings us to this forum, of course, but economic threats are real as well. And that - brace yourselves - includes my being disabled due to a heart attack: one of the family-defense actions I'm taking is trying to lose my extra 180 pounds.

    Back on topic: WE here, the gang at THR, and folks at a variety of other forums, VFW halls, churches, bars, and gas stations would CHEER! (I doubt that the Colorado church CCW lady will EVER have to buy herself a drink again). But knowing what I know about school administrators, bureaucrats, and management... I would expect a bad outcome once the cameras go away.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgraham View Post
    1. "prison is better than death, despite what some say."

    Not all say it: it depends on the prison, length of sentence and roomie.

    Note: If you are dead, you won't know the difference.


    2. "Always better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6." Sighhhhh
    1) "Average" folks aren't at all prepared for prison. County jail is worse than State pen is worse the Fed. You just became one of the BGs- be prepared to BE one. Remember that workout you skipped to watch the Simpsons...remember that sparring gym you passed because you don't have time...? "Time" just caught your a**. Are you ready to handle it?

    Word to the wise- County- the first place you go- will generally be far less supervised and far less segregated, and if the person you put down has friends in, and if the incident has been on the news since your booking... something else to keep in mind.

    2) True. See #1.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    As the old saying goes....

    "It is better to judged by 12 than carried by 6" Author unknown

    Will they press charges you could almost bet on it, would anything come of it, not likely, after the media got through (local that is) no jury (demand a trial by) would convict you, and they would villainize the prosecutor for trying.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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