What would you do?

This is a discussion on What would you do? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Approaching an armed (in condition yellow), 'old man'with bad intentions, will be your first mistake. When he sees a weapon, I bet he reacts quickly ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 49

Thread: What would you do?

  1. #31
    Moderator
    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    44,513
    Approaching an armed (in condition yellow), 'old man'with bad intentions, will be your first mistake. When he sees a weapon, I bet he reacts quickly and violently...
    Unless this dirtbag quickly shows a badge or identifies himself as a cop...as he approaches...being cognizant of the situation will be an advantage for the 'old man'...
    The dirtbag will be 'asked' to back away (just as other 'interviewers' have been directed to do)...if not...then the 'yellow light' changes and the 'old man' becomes very grumpy and defensive...

    I trust no one...always have a plan!

    Stay armed...stay vigilant...stay safe!
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

    ***********************************
    Certified Glock Armorer
    NRA Life Member[/B]

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    OK, he puts his hands up, now what are you going to do?
    Apparently, I must shoot him because the alternatives are too difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    You have standing before you a BG with a gun in the waistband and his hands in the air, your hands and attention are occupied.

    Every second you stand there contemplating, he is switching the roles and is working on getting out of the situation and most likely going to try to get the gun and shoot you while you are getting distracted or complacent. You lost your advantage.
    Perhaps so, but working with what you have described, you have a BG who has surrendered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    #1 - You change focus to go for your cell to call 911 - can you say "Attention Deficit"?

    A. - You do succeed in making the call, you dare not let him move (toward you, walk away...), now you have to wait for the LEO to hopefully arrive sometime in the next 1/2 hour. Meanwhile, to the next passerby, you are in all appearances the BG. Hope the next CC holder is trained and not jumpy.
    You dare not let him walk away?

    Nonsense - I am not an LEO. I am not here to arrest him. Obviously, if he's walking away (with his hands still visible), I am not just going to stand there waiting to be shot. I'll be moving away from him to cover.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    B. - While you take your off hand to get your phone and try to dial 911 by brail (are you sure that was 911, or the send button? Hopefully you have 911 on speed dial), he draws and shoots you because you are not 100% focused on him.
    Again, where have I or anyone else advocated just standing there like an idiot, in the open, awaiting his next move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    #2 - He starts to either back off or run away.

    A. - You let him go (a BG with a gun), call 911 to report the incident and go about your business. He waits for a little then comes back after you, this time to kill you the first opportunity he gets.
    Again you assume that I intend to just stand there in the open awaiting the BG's return, perhaps moving to better light to be an easier target.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    B. - You let him go, call 911 and wait for a LEO to show up (again, hopefully within the next 1/2 hour). I hope you sought out some cover.
    See above - moving to cover is, of course, the plan.

    And around here, it's not going to be half an hour - I am very confident I'll have too many LEOs to count here inside of 5-6 minutes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    C. - The list goes on and on...
    So I've noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    #3. - You decide to disarm him and hold him for the police.
    Really? Where did I say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    A. - Are you trained to do this?

    B. - Have you done this before?

    C. - This is not Hollywood.
    Thanks for the update.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Again I ask;

    OK, he puts his hands up, now what are you going to do?
    I certainly would never, ever contemplate doing anything so foolish as commanding him to keep his hands up while moving to cover. I'd never, ever think to have him turn around and get on the ground (still from cover), and then call 911.

    But here's what I am not going to do - I am not going to shoot someone who is not an imminent deadly threat and end up in prison for it.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  4. #33
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    good post Sticks.



    We're not talking about just seeing some guy who had a "lapse of concealment."

    We've got a guy who has already communicated that his intent is to rob us and if that's not enough, he has displayed a weapon. He didn't show it to us so we could admire the stocks, he displayed it to put us in fear so that we would comply with his demands. We now have every reason to be in fear of serious injury and/or death. As a result, there is no reason that I can see for us not to immediately respond with deadly force to stop the threat of deadly force.
    What if the threat of deadly force is sufficient to stop the threat? The BG is not holding the weapon in the scenario. What if, for whatever reason, he decides upon seeing you draw to cease hostilities?

    You do have every reason to be in fear of death or serious injury - which is the only time you're ever justified in drawing your firearm in the first place.

    I am simply saying that one needs to watch and see what the threat does in response to your response. The threat isn't somehow frozen in time when you decide to draw.

    And if, between initiating and completing your draw, the threat changes, you have to react to that as well.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Matt,

    I was not attacking you, or your post.

    I was not implying that you would "Stand there like an idiot", or that anyone else had suggested that action.

    I was questioning the decision that the threat has ended once the BG puts their hands up.

    The possibilities that I listed are just that, possibilities, and what I thought would be most likely events to occur with most people under extreme stress when one forgets the basics.

    The threat has ended when the BG hands go up thinking denotes hesitation, and rightly so if one decides to see how the BG is going to react to being met with a level of resistance rather than the anticipated compliance.

    As we all know, taking a life is a HUGE deal. In some situations, hesitation really tends to complicate things more and more as each second passes.

    I am not advocating anyone shooting someone that approaches them with an unconcealed gun. This particular scenario as written by the OP IMHO dictates swift and decisive action, not a play by play.

    If the BG's gun is left out of the scenario, then yes, wait and see is a wiser course of action.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  6. #35
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Sorry, I just re-read my post and it is a bit (more than a bit) snarky.

    I apologize for the tone. Long night.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,407
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Sorry, I just re-read my post and it is a bit (more than a bit) snarky.

    I apologize for the tone. Long night.

    Matt


    No worries, I forgot to take my meds last night and am a bit fuzzy as well.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Paymeister's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,540
    Glad things de-escalated. But I'm concerned about Sticks' conundrum: now I have the bad guy in front of me, with his hands in the air and a pistol in his waistband. I have my pistol pointed at him (let's assume from the right hip position, to reduce the liklihood of a grab), a cellphone (probably on my strong side hip where Murphy told me to wear it), and the probable need to change my pants.

    Now what?

    It almost seems that I should say, "Bad day, pal. Keep your hands up or out to the sides and walk slowly away from me and get outta here - if I see your hands go down in the next block, I'm assuming you're going for your gun and I'll shoot you in the back. Now turn around reeeeaaaal slow, and start walking." (...as I move to cover and call the gendarmes)

    Seriously - I would love to get the opinions of the folks who have thought this through or have done this before. It was bad when I caught a fish and then realized I had no idea what to do with it - this is a lot worse.

    I also invite comments about what to do if wife or daughter were to be with me. Wife would pull her piece as well, and we could have a party. Daughter could scan for other BGs and call 911 as I held the fellow in place, I suppose. Family along or not, wife armed or not, I would love advice here. Thanks!

  9. #38
    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dover,tn
    Posts
    222
    I would tell the man that my money is in a money clip and don't hurt me it's all yours. When my hand game out of pocket, the money Clib(gun) goes bang bang and bang very quiclkly. I am not going to give him a reason to go for the draw that's plain silly. By the way I'm living proo that this works.
    Jack dog

  10. #39
    Senior Member
    Array Baby Hulk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,075
    Quote Originally Posted by glock27mark View Post
    coundn't agree with ya more. bg's intentions have already
    been made.
    +1 once the handgun was presented, you have absolutely NO guarantee that he won't use it even if you comply. Those odds are automatically NOT in my favor! The ONLY guarantee you have in this scenario is the advantage of surprise and your concealed firearm.
    It's not about the caliber you carry, it's about how you USE it.

    Acts 4:12
    (Mohammad Who?)

    1988 DIE HARD 2008
    NRA Member

  11. #40
    Member Array mslaughtertx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    At Work
    Posts
    346
    I need not escalate, because he already has. I am in fear for my life if he shows a gun and will treat the situation accordingly.

  12. #41
    Member Array gglockster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    150
    1. Start backing up to get out of the situation.
    2. Assess the situation.
    A. If I am in fear for my life then I would draw and engage targets in priority threat to my life.
    B. If I am pursued but do not feel that I am in fear for my life then I would say "Stop! Show me your hands"
    Return to step 1. above

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    What if the threat of deadly force is sufficient to stop the threat? The BG is not holding the weapon in the scenario. What if, for whatever reason, he decides upon seeing you draw to cease hostilities?
    ...
    I am simply saying that one needs to watch and see what the threat does in response to your response. The threat isn't somehow frozen in time when you decide to draw.

    And if, between initiating and completing your draw, the threat changes, you have to react to that as well.

    Matt
    According to the scenario in the OP, he has shown us a gun and we have a hand on ours.

    I see one of two things happening when I draw. Either he's going to instinctively grab for his (which means he gets shot) or he's going to immediately make some sort of "I surrender" gesture (which means he doesn't need to get shot).

    The problem, as I see it, is that we're talking about such a short time span here (literally a second or two) that we really don't have a whole lot of time to "assess" and determine which course of action he's going to choose. Even if he intends to surrender, he may (as a reaction to our draw) make some sort of flinch-type move toward his weapon at which point, I can't afford to take chances.

    Because of his actions up to this point, I have no reason not to believe that he isn't ready and willing to use his weapon. I'd rather not give him the benefit of the doubt.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  14. #43
    Administrator
    Array QKShooter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Off Of The X
    Posts
    35,107
    Now is a great time to tell folks to research and review their respective state laws concerning the justified use of deadly force.
    Some states do have existing law that requires a first obligation to retreat if possible.
    So if a forensic examination of the scene determines that the BG fell and died with his arms up in surrender you could be in deep doo doo depending on your state law.

    For instance here is Pennsylvania.

    505. Use of force in self-protection.

    (a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.--The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

    (b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.--


    The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

    to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

    to resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

    (A) the actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest;

    (B) the actor has been unlawfully dispossessed of the property and is making a reentry or recaption justified by section 507 of this title (relating to use of force for the protection of property); or

    (C) the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

    The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

    the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

    the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

    (A) the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

    (B) a public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.


    Except as required by paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  15. #44
    Member Array jackdog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dover,tn
    Posts
    222
    Agreed you need to know the laws of the state you are in. However, If you really think you have the time to access the situation, think again. He can draw and fire that weapon in well under a second. Remember action is always quicker than reaction. If you have doubts about shooting someone maybe weapon carry is not your best option.
    Jack dog

  16. #45
    Member Array gglockster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    150

    Distance favors the better trained

    There is an excellent article on the subject.

    What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

    In my earlier post, I indicated that I would attempt to increase the distance between myself and hostilities. Opening my distance:
    A. buys me time
    B. favors the better trained shooter
    C. helps determine the intention of the aggressor

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •