How would you go about this?

This is a discussion on How would you go about this? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well get the girls shooting that shotgun so they are not afraid of it. That piece of mind knowing it's there for them when your ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Well get the girls shooting that shotgun so they are not afraid of it.
    That piece of mind knowing it's there for them when your not would help. Also you need to take striker off the door frame for your deadbolts and replace the screws with 4" wood screws. When someone kicks in a door the door don't break, the jamb does. Replace all the stricker screws with 4" that will put the screws into the studs around your door frame. That will take alot of abuse before it gives in. Plenty of time for a 12 ga. to plant itself on the inside in case it does come open. Do this with every door you have. The home depot sells a little window alarm that gives off a pretty loud siren if opened, 1 aa battery and double sided tape and you will know when any window is open. $10.00 to secure every entrance.
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  3. #77
    Member Array Slimz13's Avatar
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    While you'll find plenty of empassioned proponents of the 00 load in a 12ga.. remember that you're talking about kids here. Sadistic, dangerous, violent kids, but kids nonetheless. we're not talking about hardened gang-bangers, and making swiss cheese out of a 17yr old is not going to help you in court, regardless of the circumstances.

    While I have NO, i repeat NO experience with factory less-lethal loads, it may be something worth doing some reading on, especially considering one or more of your would-be assailants may be a minor. Any prosecution lawyer with two brain cells to rub together will have a field day with that little fact..

    While it wouldnt hurt to have mitigating circumstances on your side.. YOUR safety has to come first.

    Just a thought..

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by derekxec View Post
    i went to the sheriff office and tried to get the restraining order. maybe i should go to the courthouse instead? if my brother gets 125k out of their home owners ins. we will be out of here
    YES GO TO THE COURT HOUSE This really is the most important thing for you to do. More than video tapes or anything else this gives you evidence of your fear. It also gives you the power to have them arrested every time they threaten or harass you. Last if you ever do need to defend your self, the restraining order and any reported violations give you the defense you will need. Especially the ladies need to have one. You must get one if there is a real threat

    Shotgun DO NOT let them see it ever. Never ever. The only time any of "them" should see it, is as you are puling the trigger. Do not use it to threaten or intimidate them. Do not let them know you have it no matter what. Make sure all your room mates know this make them swear to never ever say anything about guns to "them" or to anyone else.
    A) If they see the gun or guns they may very well arm up themselves. You may create the scenario where it will become deadly when it may not need to be.
    B) You will have given away the element of surprise. Remember if it comes down to it you do not want to be in a fair fight. Cheating to live is a good thing.
    C) Brandishing will make you the bad guy in the laws eyes. Even if you do not brandish "they" can claim you did. If they say you brandished a shotgun and you own a shotgun who are the police going to believe?
    D) Require that everyone there learns gun safety and how to use the shotgun or make them move out now.
    E) Never ever let anyone know you have a gun. Unless you have to shoot them it is not their business. They have no need to know.

    Again I can not emphasis this enough get the restraining order that is without a doubt the best most important thing you can do. Make the court to impose a 1,000 foot rule. Make sure every single one of your room mates gets a restraining order / order of protection / no contact order. If they are unwilling to do that they have no room to complain
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Long, some state's laws would not permit a restraining order in this case, not sure of FL. NJ, if I remember all the hearings I've sat in on, would not permit it since they are "just" neighbors. Like I've previously stated, if FL law permits neighbors to get restraining orders, it might be beneficial to talk to the grandpa if he is an officer. He will not like having his weapons taken as a result of his grandkids being idiots.

    Slimz, there are 11 and 12 year old kids who have more than one body on them. Look at the African kid soldiers. All it takes is the physical ability to pull the trigger. Just because some of the OP's neighbors are juveniles does not mean they are harmless. And there are hardened gang-bangers under the age of 18 in most big cities.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  6. #80
    Ex Member Array TacticalCompact's Avatar
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    Be careful with guns.

    Crappy situation. The truth is, no laws are being broken, or at least there is insufficient evidence of any that _might be_ for the cops to arrest anyone or even really say anything to them about it.

    A restraining order, however, would solve that problem. If you have a restraining order against them and they break it, they are going to jail. Everyone here who is chiming on about how there MUST be a law broken here is wrong. You'd be amazed what laws actually mean when considered by lawyers and judges. Usually, they don't mean what you think they do.

    You can generally only use deadly force when your "attacker" has the ability and opportunity to cause serious bodily injury or death. You must, in many states, exaust all methods of preclusion before using deadly force. In some areas as well, in order for you to use deadly force you must be incapable of otherwise adequately defending yourself. The United States Supreme Court decided in what, 1985, that you can only use deadly force to stop a threat to human life. Deadly force is thereby prohibited from use to protect property or stop/prevent crimes against such.

    Remember that if you shoot someone, you will probably be sued by their surviving family members, even if you aren't charged for a crime. These are people's kids. Shooting them, or allowing them to put themselves into a position where they may be shot, is irresponsible. Take the steps required by law to stop them from harassing you further. Protect yourself, but only use deadly force if your life or the life of your loved one is in imminent danger.

    Seriously.

  7. #81
    Ex Member Array USA Pugilist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    Crappy situation. The truth is, no laws are being broken, or at least there is insufficient evidence of any that _might be_ for the cops to arrest anyone or even really say anything to them about it.

    A restraining order, however, would solve that problem. If you have a restraining order against them and they break it, they are going to jail. Everyone here who is chiming on about how there MUST be a law broken here is wrong. You'd be amazed what laws actually mean when considered by lawyers and judges. Usually, they don't mean what you think they do.

    You can generally only use deadly force when your "attacker" has the ability and opportunity to cause serious bodily injury or death. You must, in many states, exaust all methods of preclusion before using deadly force. In some areas as well, in order for you to use deadly force you must be incapable of otherwise adequately defending yourself. The United States Supreme Court decided in what, 1985, that you can only use deadly force to stop a threat to human life. Deadly force is thereby prohibited from use to protect property or stop/prevent crimes against such.

    Remember that if you shoot someone, you will probably be sued by their surviving family members, even if you aren't charged for a crime. These are people's kids. Shooting them, or allowing them to put themselves into a position where they may be shot, is irresponsible. Take the steps required by law to stop them from harassing you further. Protect yourself, but only use deadly force if your life or the life of your loved one is in imminent danger.

    Seriously.

    Not in Florida. Castle Doctrine. Minor or not. They shouldnt be in someones home without permission, shouldn't threaten another human with deadly force. They must be armed, remember, 2,3 or 4 of them coming at you in a violent matter is considered life-threatning.

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    Crappy situation. The truth is, no laws are being broken, or at least there is insufficient evidence of any that _might be_ for the cops to arrest anyone or even really say anything to them about it.

    A restraining order, however, would solve that problem. If you have a restraining order against them and they break it, they are going to jail. Everyone here who is chiming on about how there MUST be a law broken here is wrong. You'd be amazed what laws actually mean when considered by lawyers and judges. Usually, they don't mean what you think they do.

    You can generally only use deadly force when your "attacker" has the ability and opportunity to cause serious bodily injury or death. You must, in many states, exaust all methods of preclusion before using deadly force. In some areas as well, in order for you to use deadly force you must be incapable of otherwise adequately defending yourself. The United States Supreme Court decided in what, 1985, that you can only use deadly force to stop a threat to human life. Deadly force is thereby prohibited from use to protect property or stop/prevent crimes against such.

    Remember that if you shoot someone, you will probably be sued by their surviving family members, even if you aren't charged for a crime. These are people's kids. Shooting them, or allowing them to put themselves into a position where they may be shot, is irresponsible. Take the steps required by law to stop them from harassing you further. Protect yourself, but only use deadly force if your life or the life of your loved one is in imminent danger.

    Seriously.
    Please do not post incorrect information. There is no national law saying you cannot use deadly force to protect property. It vary's by state(florida does not happen to allow deadly force to protect property). And Florida has the castile doctrine which protects against civil suits. As for the restraining order, the OP has said several times that he has tried to get one, and the police want 30 days survailance.

    And as far as laws being broken, the last time I remember, vandalism, destruction of private property, using illegal drugs, minors carrying handguns, and threatening to kill somebody were all against the law, and I believe they are against the law in all 50 states, unlike the erroneous statement that you made about deadly force to protect property.
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  9. #83
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    Here is the law in Florida. Do not trust someone's internet opinion, it will not hold up in court. Only following the law will. It's too long to post.


    Lawful Self-Defense - Florida



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  10. #84
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    remember that you're talking about kids here. Sadistic, dangerous, violent kids, but kids nonetheless. we're not talking about hardened gang-bangers,
    Confused here. Are you saying not being in a gang justifies being a danger to other human beings? IMO anyone regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, race or religion who is a danger to other human beings lives or well being, forfeit the right to suck air. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    Long, some state's laws would not permit a restraining order in this case, not sure of FL. NJ, if I remember all the hearings I've sat in on, would not permit it since they are "just" neighbors. Like I've previously stated, if FL law permits neighbors to get restraining orders, it might be beneficial to talk to the grandpa if he is an officer. He will not like having his weapons taken as a result of his grandkids being idiots.
    You may be right which is why I also said order of protection / no contact order or whatever the appropriate term is for his jurisdiction. I am sure his fellow Floridians can provide the correct variant of a restraining order he & his room mates need to obtain. There are no contact orders or orders of protection for non domestic relationships. The court house can guide him to the proper request. I doubt the tact with grandpa will work, he is only accountable for his own conduct. Not what his grand kids do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    Crappy situation. The truth is, no laws are being broken, or at least there is insufficient evidence of any that _might be_ for the cops to arrest anyone or even really say anything to them about it..
    There have been laws broken, maybe not sever enough in for the local LE "opinion" to act on it. However. Trespass threats etc are illegal none the less. Crimes that have clearly created a state of fear for the OP and his room mates. Crimes that have more than a few concerned about the OP's well being. Yes crimes have been committed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    Remember that if you shoot someone, you will probably be sued by their surviving family members, even if you aren't charged for a crime. .......... Protect yourself, but only use deadly force if your life or the life of your loved one is in imminent danger.
    Can you cite the Supreme Court ruling? I know in my state Washington you can shoot to: protect property, stop a felony, and stop someone from fleeing from a felony or if a reasonable person would think they were at risk of being injured. Along with in defense of life. My guess other states have similar laws. If I am correct Florida has the castle doctrine in place so bad guys can not sue for a good shoot
    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalCompact View Post
    These are people's kids. Shooting them, or allowing them to put themselves into a position where they may be shot, is irresponsible.
    Huh? I am, at a complete loss here, So what Ted Bundy & Adolph Hitler were some ones kids too how is that relevant? And "allowing them to put themselves into a position where they may be shot, is irresponsible." Is a completely nonsensical statement. How does anyone not allow an idiot from being an idiot? How can anyone but the idiot be held accountable for the idiots conduct.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  11. #85
    Member Array Magilla82ABN's Avatar
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    A shot gun with 00 Buck is still a great homedefense weapon and you can get that at 18 and pretty cheap also
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  12. #86
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    E) Never ever let anyone know you have a gun. Unless you have to shoot them it is not their business.
    + 1

    good advice always

  13. #87
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense (FLORIDA)

    In receiving a license to carry a concealed weapon for lawful self-defense, you are undertaking a great responsibility. A license to carry a concealed weapon is not a license to use it. I am sure you share my hope that you will never find it necessary to use a weapon in self-defense. If you do, the law will protect you only if you have acted within the law. Those who are choosing to arm themselves with weapons should, therefore, be armed with the most indispensable weapon of all knowledge.

    We are providing this information to you as a service in pursuit of that goal. Only you can provide the wisdom, restraint, and good judgment that the law demands of those who possess the ability to take another human life.

    Charles H. Bronson
    Commissioner
    A License to Carry a Concealed Weapon is not a License to use it.

    This information was prepared by the Division of Licensing in an attempt to answer some of the most frequently asked questions about the use of deadly force for lawful self-defense. Included are examples of real situations involving the legal consequences of the use of deadly force.


    Q. What if I am in my vehicle?

    A. A person has no duty to retreat in his lawfully occupied vehicle against a person who was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or had unlawfully and forcefully entered an occupied vehicle or had unlawfully and forcefully removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the occupied vehicle.


    Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

    A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

    Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

    A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

    * Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
    * Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.


    Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

    Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

    Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

    A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

    Q. What if someone is attacking me in my own home?

    A. The courts have created an exception to the duty to retreat called the “castle doctrine.” Under the castle doctrine, you need not retreat from your own home to avoid using deadly force against an assailant. The castle doctrine applies if you are attacked in your own home by an intruder or an invited guest.


    Q. What if I am in my place of business and someone comes in to rob me? Do I have to retreat before using deadly force?

    A. The castle doctrine also applies when you are in your place of business. If you are in danger of death or great bodily harm or you are trying to prevent a forcible felony, you do not have to retreat before using deadly force in self-defense.

    Q. What if I point my handgun at someone but don't use it?

    A. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument. Threatening someone verbally while possessing a handgun, even licensed, will land you in jail for three years. Even if the gun is broken or you don't have bullets, you will receive the mandatory three-year sentence if convicted. The law does not allow any possibility of getting out of jail early.

    Example: In a 1987 case, a woman refused to pay an automobile mechanic who she thought did a poor job repairing her car. They argued about it, and the mechanic removed the radiator hose from the car so she couldn't drive it away. She reached into her purse, pulled out an unloaded gun, and threatened to kill the mechanic if he touched her car again. The mechanic grabbed the gun and called the police.

    The woman was convicted of aggravated assault with a firearm and sentenced to serve a mandatory three-year prison term. The fact that the gun was not loaded was irrelevant. Even though she was the mother of three dependent children and had no prior criminal record, the statute does not allow for parole. Her only recourse was to seek clemency from the Governor.

    Q. When can I use deadly force in the defense of another person?

    A. If you see someone who is being attacked, you can use deadly force to defend him/her if the circumstances would justify that person's use of deadly force in his/her own defense. In other words, you "stand in the shoes" of the person being attacked.


    Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

    A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.


    Q. If I get a license to carry a concealed weapon, can I carry it anywhere?

    A. No. To get a license you must sign an oath that you have read and understand the Jack Hagler Self-defense Act (Section 790.06, Florida Statutes). That statute lists several places where you may not carry a concealed weapon. You should read subsection 12 for a complete list, but some examples are football, baseball, and basketball games (college or professional) and bars.

    A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

    Summary

    1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

    2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

    * Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
    * Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
    * If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.

    3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

    4. Never carry your concealed weapon into any place where the statute prohibits carrying it.


    This is not a complete summary of all the statutes and court opinions on the use of deadly force. Because the concealed weapons statute specifies that concealed weapons are to be used for lawful self-defense, we have not attempted to summarize the body of law on lawful defense of property. This information is not intended as legal advice. Every self-defense case has its own unique set of facts, and it is unwise to try to predict how a particular case would be decided. It is clear, however, that the law protects people who keep their tempers under control and use deadly force only as a last resort.

    Lawful Self-Defense - Weapons - Division of Licensing, DOACS



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  14. #88
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    bluelineman, all great information, but the OP does not have a concealed weapons permit, therefore any force that he is forced to use, will occur on his own property.

    I don't believe anyone is advocating going over to his neighbor's house and starting a gunfight. Exactly the opposite. Take the legal steps necessary to ensure that any further harassment is against the law and to ensure the guys next door have a clear message that they are not welcome on his property.

    That being said, the way the OP paints the picture makes it sound like this will get worse before it gets better. With young women in the household, regardless of hostile neighbors, it is always a good idea to have a means of protection. Hence the recommendation of owning a shotgun for Home Defense, not for vengeance, or to threaten the neighbors.

    By the way, if you do buy a shotgun, do not let your neighbors know you have it unless you are forced to. Because their grandfather is LE, and has friends in LE, if you present a shotgun, it might be very difficult for you to prove that you were not threatening them.


    And your post reaffirms that laws have been broken. Attempting to enter his vehicle while he was in it was a flagrant violation, as well as attempting to enter his house.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  15. #89
    Member Array Slimz13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Confused here. Are you saying not being in a gang justifies being a danger to other human beings? IMO anyone regardless of age, gender, sexual orientation, race or religion who is a danger to other human beings lives or well being, forfeit the right to suck air. Period.
    I meant from a court/jury perspective, shooting a minor will work against you. Any prosecution lawyer would have a field day telling the jury how you "gunned down a child, still in the prime of his life.. blah blah blah"

    Bottom line, if he presents a threat, he gets dropped.
    But its something to bear in mind, especially if you end up having to engage him in a situation where he is not armed.

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    I meant from a court/jury perspective, shooting a minor will be work against you. Any prosecution lawyer would have a field day telling the jury how you "shot a child, still in the prime of his life.. blah blah blah"

    Bottom line, if he presents a threat, he gets dropped.
    But its something to bear in mind, especially if you end up having to engage him in a situation where he is not armed.
    4 or 5 minors(16-17) in a physical encounter is disparity of force whether they are armed or not.

    If a minor is carrying a handgun, and I am forced to shoot him, I don't believe there would be a lot of sympathy for the kid, who illegally obtained the weapon, illegally carried the weapon, and tried to use that weapon to take my life. The DA can have a field day all he wants, it would never get past the Grand Jury, especially, as in this case, it would be at the OP's door step.

    Hopefully, all of this can be taken care of by the letters he already sent, and hopefully, it never gets this far.

    Stay safe and keep an eye out.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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