What would you overlook?

What would you overlook?

This is a discussion on What would you overlook? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; To begin with let me state that my meds are not working, I can't sleep, and a few other threads have got me I didn't ...

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Thread: What would you overlook?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    What would you overlook?

    To begin with let me state that my meds are not working, I can't sleep, and a few other threads have got me I didn't do a search, our world changes daily. What IYO is a citizens arrest?
    How would you react to these sit. We use the term sheepdog alot around here.

    1. You pull up at the grocery store on your way home(got to get milk and eggs) You look over and see a 6' tall man punching a woman. The driver side door is open and she is halfway on the ground, you have seen at least two hits real fast. What would you do?

    2. You and your other just left the movies on your way to your car you see a young couple being pushed around by 5 for real thugs. There 10 cars past yours,you get your car unlocked, and then you see one of them hit the guy?

    3. You look over at you neighbors house, and you think you saw a man just push in the back door? your not sure, you look and his or his son's truck's are not there but the wife's is?

    4. Where is the line? What would it take to move you from a good witness, to feeling that there are being eaten?

    I know we all have our own life to think of, our family, but we all know that the police are there after the fact, How small is your herd?

    I have no kids and alway's root for the underdog so my line may be thinner then others, What do you think? There are BG coming out of the woodwork( that maybe why MS. passed the castle doctrine) and GG seem to be here and there? I know i'm not leo, but it has been stated many times there not there to protect you. How far would you go to save a stranger?? And please inform me OYO citizens arrest.
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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  2. #2
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    Washington State has no citizens arrest provisions, no such thing exists here.

    As for your scenarios... many people, often myself included, do not know how they would respond in real life when reading a situation typed out on screen. I, like all others, have some cut and dried "yes, get involved" and "no, wouldn't touch it" situations in my head. Those you have typed, for me, I'm not sure. I wouldn't "overlook" any of the occurrences, but I also may not step into the middle of them.

    #1, maybe. Domestic situations are bad things. The victim will often attack their savior if they think their "man" is in danger. Bad thing to step into. Had it happen to a friend. When the police arrive and the 'victim' realizes the guy may go to jail, she may say nothing was going on and you attacked them. It is something to consider.

    #2, maybe. Looking at the big picture, is there a way to safely separate the couple from the thugs? Drive up fast and get them to back off enough to insert my car between them? Can I, with the car pointed out and running, honk the horn to get their attention and yell "I'm calling the police"? Are my young kids with me? That is an important consideration to my stepping into anything.

    #3, probably not. I'd call only. If I go there and she has already called the police because she heard/saw something... they show up, I'm there with a gun... If she is alert to something and has already retrieved her own gun... If their teenage son forgot his key and was just climbing into the house... If she's not home in the first place... If I know their phone number, maybe I can call and talk to her/alert her?

    I know these aren't the answers you are looking for, but sometimes a person just doesn't honestly know until it happens. To me, being a "sheepdog" doesn't always mean being the guy that saves the day. Sometimes it's just being the one that cares enough to make the 911 call and do what I can while staying safe enough to be there for my family in the future.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    +1 to CopperKnights responses.
    Citizens arrests are kinda funny to discuss, but there's no real provision in most states laws. It just makes for good TV and Hollywood.

    1. I'm calling, domestic situation is to be handled by someone with authority and backup.
    2. Again calling....but might get in there with the car if I can safely remove my wife/kids from the situation.
    3. Here I might have a 'little' diffrent response.....I'm pretty friendly with my neighbors and know who's comming and going most of the time. Again calling, her # first, dispatch second if I believe necessary... but knowing the cop are enroute I might think twice about entering....'might'. I know my neighbors have firearms so I wanna stay out of the line of thier fire too.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    First off, I feel that the herd needs culling. No "Sheepdog" for me.
    1. You don't know the situation. She might have jumped into his car and tried to rob him. She might be his wife. Call the police, and yell at the guy from a distance that you just called the police. Play it from there.

    2. Again, you don't know the situation. A lot of thug/gangbanger wannabes out there. Call the police, yell out that you called the police, play it from there.

    3. Presuming you are close friends with said neighbor, call the police on the cell phone and then maybe go over to the front door (taking the cell phone with you and staying on the line with 911) and knock/ring doorbell multiple times and yell asking if they are OK. Hopefully not a direct line from the back door to the front. Sidearm at low ready, standing aside from the door. If the wife comes out, take her over to your house and wait for the police.


    4. I don't know Joe or Jane Q. public. I've met some real POS clean cut suit wearing stab you in the back people, and some very caring, friendly give you the shirt off your back scuzzy, sociopath kill you for looking at them sideways looking people. Again, the herd needs culling.

    If I know a person that is involved in a problem, then I will step in. If it is two strangers, and I don't see everything from the start, I am a witness. I will call the police and give them as much detail and info that I can and a general description of the incident occurring. If I see an aggressor pull a weapon, I am taking cover and yelling that the police are on their way with my sidearm at low ready.

    I don't have kids, not gonna have kids, so that is a non issue. If I have the wife with me, then she is on the phone as well to the police. If we are away from home, she is in the drivers seat, car running, and will leave the immediate area for her own safety until the situation is resolved.

    Citizens arrest. Not sure what CO law is on that one, not going to get involved in it. Liability and all for false arrest, kidnapping and so on.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    First off, I feel that the herd needs culling. No "Sheepdog" for me.


    LOL...
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Like was said above, citizens arrest changes state by state. Mine has a different definition than yours.
    Michie's Legal Resources
    There is a link to your state law which was linked from here Mississippi Secretary of State - Unannotated Code Search

    Your statutes aren't exactly easy to find or navigate, but from what it looks like...
    Yours is not nearly as broad as ours in Texas, so I would be doubly sure that you saw the entire situation, have witnesses to back up your story, and are very sure you that they are commiting a felony and that you can prove that they were commiting a felony.
    On the plus side, it does say that if you are found innocent in a criminal court, you can't be prosecuted in civil court, and if you are not tried in criminal court, but only in civil court and are found not guilty, that the plantiff has to reimburse you with lost wages, court costs, attorney fees, etc...(good luck collecting though)

    I'm not an attorney and I have a little trouble with your particular statutes. It is hard to tell if you have the right to protect a 3rd party. Part of the statute says you do, but when it goes to defining definitions, it uses some double-speak so it almost sounds like you have to be a public officer, or under a public officer's direction to protect a 3rd party...Again, it's pretty hazy. I would call a local attorney and ask him to explain.

    But to answer your question...
    1. call the police, and let the guy know I called the police. Domestic disputes would be very difficult for me to get involved with unless I had seen it from the beginning.
    2. call the police, and be a good witness. 5 on 1 doesn't seem like good odds for me to get involved. Possibly walk away from my car and set off the car alarm, also.
    3. call my neighbor first, then call police if they don't answer. Ring door bell at front door, listen for sounds of struggle, from there it would greatly depend on what happened next.
    4. that line depends. For me to interfere for a 3rd party, I need to know exactly what is going on, have a high propability of success, ensure I am not putting my family in harms way, and know that I am not making a bad situation worse.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Musketeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    1. You don't know the situation. She might have jumped into his car and tried to rob him. She might be his wife. Call the police, and yell at the guy from a distance that you just called the police. Play it from there.

    2. Again, you don't know the situation. A lot of thug/gangbanger wannabes out there. Call the police, yell out that you called the police, play it from there.

    3. Presuming you are close friends with said neighbor, call the police on the cell phone and then maybe go over to the front door (taking the cell phone with you and staying on the line with 911) and knock/ring doorbell multiple times and yell asking if they are OK. Hopefully not a direct line from the back door to the front. Sidearm at low ready, standing aside from the door. If the wife comes out, take her over to your house and wait for the police.


    4. I don't know Joe or Jane Q. public. ... Again, the herd needs culling.

    If I know a person that is involved in a problem, then I will step in. If it is two strangers, and I don't see everything from the start, I am a witness. I will call the police and give them as much detail and info that I can and a general description of the incident occurring. If I see an aggressor pull a weapon, I am taking cover and yelling that the police are on their way with my sidearm at low ready.
    "If god had not meant them to be fleeced he would not have made them sheep." I will help but not endanger myself or family to either physical harm or legal/civil harm. The only place I really differ from the above quote is on a clear aggressor drawing a deadly weapon with clear criminal intent. There is no warning needed in such a situation, shoot him in the back until he is no longer a threat. The CCW holder at the Tacoma Mall in WA thought to challenge the criminal youth with the gun. He was shot for his trouble and the last I heard paralyzed below the waist.

  8. #8
    Member Array MadDog's Avatar
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    I like what sticks said :

    "If I know a person that is involved in a problem, then I will step in. If it is two strangers, and I don't see everything from the start, I am a witness. I will call the police and give them as much detail and info that I can and a general description of the incident occurring. If I see an aggressor pull a weapon, I am taking cover and yelling that the police are on their way with my sidearm at low ready."
    I believe in gun control...... Thats why I use TWO hands.

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdwolf View Post
    To begin with let me state that my meds are not working, I can't sleep, and a few other threads have got me I didn't do a search, our world changes daily. What IYO is a citizens arrest?
    How would you react to these sit. We use the term sheepdog alot around here.

    1. You pull up at the grocery store on your way home(got to get milk and eggs) You look over and see a 6' tall man punching a woman. The driver side door is open and she is halfway on the ground, you have seen at least two hits real fast. What would you do?

    2. You and your other just left the movies on your way to your car you see a young couple being pushed around by 5 for real thugs. There 10 cars past yours,you get your car unlocked, and then you see one of them hit the guy?

    3. You look over at you neighbors house, and you think you saw a man just push in the back door? your not sure, you look and his or his son's truck's are not there but the wife's is?

    4. Where is the line? What would it take to move you from a good witness, to feeling that there are being eaten?

    I know we all have our own life to think of, our family, but we all know that the police are there after the fact, How small is your herd?

    I have no kids and alway's root for the underdog so my line may be thinner then others, What do you think? There are BG coming out of the woodwork( that maybe why MS. passed the castle doctrine) and GG seem to be here and there? I know i'm not leo, but it has been stated many times there not there to protect you. How far would you go to save a stranger?? And please inform me OYO citizens arrest.

    Here's my response off duty:

    1) Call 911, other than that don't get involved.

    2) Same as #1

    3) Same as #1 and #2

    4) Sheep are for eating, my guns are to protect me and mine.

    I would get the idea of a "Citizen's Arrest" out of my head unless you like being sued for Wrongful Imprisonment. Everyone is responsible for their own safety. If someone doesn't take steps to ensure their own safety, so be it. They get what they get.

    I know that sounds cold, callous and cruel, but the world is that way.

    Biker

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array matiki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperKnight View Post
    Washington State has no citizens arrest provisions, no such thing exists here.
    That's a very common myth.

    Here is the code that allows citizens arrest:

    RCW 9A.16.020: Use of force — When lawful.

    (2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;
    You can make an arrest against anyone who has committed a felony in your presence.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by matiki View Post
    That's a very common myth.

    Here is the code that allows citizens arrest:

    RCW 9A.16.020: Use of force — When lawful.



    You can make an arrest against anyone who has committed a felony in your presence.
    I may have to stand corrected. I'll read into it a little more.
    eschew obfuscation

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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Every state, other than North Carolina, has a prevision for citizens arrest.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

    http://miscmusings.townhall.com/

    Who is John Galt?

  13. #13
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    the only time i would intervene is for someone i know. two strangers i'll just call the police and try to be a good witness. but say if someone is trying to start a fight with one of the guys on my FIST team i'll step in and try to prevent any damage to the name of the best fist team in the eightenth airborne corps.(yes i had to throw that bit of bragging in there)
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Array MR D's Avatar
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    all it takes for evil to win is for good men (and women) to standby and do nothing...

    I will call 911 in each of these cases... I can also video with my PDA... (better witness than my eye or memory...)

    in the first one I might ask the guy if he needs help...

    I want his attention on me - at 5'11" and 300# I might make a better target than she does - and I have equipment to stop or deter the threat...

    the police patrol pretty aggressively around our shopping areas, and several have off duty officers as plain clothed security... and they all have cameras on their parking lots...

    if she is the aggressor - that will come out soon enough...

    second - I get in my car and pull up even with the "young couple" and tell them to "get in the car or we will be late..."

    they decide they want a piece of me... they can come and get it... - I am in the car - and it can be a very strong defensive position - IIRC I was once accused of driving on a sidewalk too...

    last one - call 911 and then call their house and cell #'s make sure what the situation is... if I am going to respond I would strap on my 3 pt harness and AR... Sig stays in the holster...

    I have a key to my neighbor's house, the nearest responding department has taken up to 45 minutes to get here in the past - if I believe the neighbor's wife is home - and she doesn't answer her phone - I may have to go borrow a cup of sugar...

    if I don't believe that she is home I can camp out - our houses are pretty close - there is only vehicle accessibility to front of the house... long walk to next closest and there are no fences to block views...

    I can cover the back and side entrances from my back deck...

    yes - my first responsibility is to my family but I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning too

    responses change too if my wife is with me - she can use the phone and take pictures... and watch my back...

  15. #15
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    yes - my first responsibility is to my family but I have to be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning too
    If the thought of just being a good witness and summoning help bothers you get therapy after the fact.

    Trust me, you will live. You may not live if you intercede in a situation where you don't know who all the players are. Sometimes, most often, things are not what they seem.

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