February 29th, 2008 04:56 AM
Couldn't have covered it any better. +1!
Originally Posted by retsupt99
February 29th, 2008 06:47 AM
MCP, I was wondering when someone would realize we had an extra gun after BG1 went down, was hoping I would get some help, maybe from one of the Ladies BF or hubby, would rather have someone not emotially connected to them though.
After reading the replies I think, helping the majority to escape would be the better option, beats waiting for someone to wait for a bullet.
Now, lets say it went down like this.
I took out BG1, BG2 and 3, take women hostage, ok here we have stand off
I tell whomever I am dining with to tell LEO who I am, wearing etc so I don't get plastered, and I set up door watch.
BG's come out holding hostage in front so no clear shot, as they get closer and closer to me still no shot, I will try to move back but they seperate still no shot??????????
Also, lets say they take out at least one of the women, because of me Forcing them into a situation,,what are the legal ramifacations of my actions, saved a lot but lost 1 because I decided to be a hero??
Sorry to keep adding to this but for some reason I need to find an answer, I wasn't there nor a family member, but feels personal someway. Only dined there 1 time.
Thanks for the replies
February 29th, 2008 07:09 AM
It may be just me but my signature says it all. I don't know that I would just hand someone the extra firearm? BG#1 down I'm covering the door and only escape the other 2 have. Everyone else leaves, calls 911. If they decide to take the two ladies hostage it will be in that room. A couple .40 in the door frame will probably keep them back if they try to exit using the ladies as a shield. More then likely only one will exit to see who their buddy shot, now 2 BG gone.
the third will be in there until leo's arrive if he wants to walk out on his own power!1
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
February 29th, 2008 08:57 AM
I am inclined to agree that the two in the head are going to think, "Who did Big T shoot?", one of them is going to just walk out to see what happened, the other is going to continue to keep an eye on the candy.
#2 gets dropped (hopefully without him firing a shot) and #3 is going to come out halfway yelling for Big T and Leon what is going on, trying to keep an eye on the candy and look around. He sees #'s 1 & 2 on the floor he is going to have a second or two of indecision while he process the fact that the plan is not going to plan.
It might even be worthwhile to mimic the BGs voice and speech to make it sound like their still in control while motioning for everyone to keep quiet and get the heck down or away from the exit point of BG#3.
Of course this is all armchair quarterbacking. Every second that passes changes the possible outcome.
Me, with the OP scenario, I am calling 911 and leaving the phone on the seat, dropping #1 at my first chance, and getting cover and position on the bathroom door for #2 & 3. The sheep are going to be screaming and running for the doors, after #1 falls. That is not going to help matters. #2 & 3 are still going to have to deal with the plan that is not going to plan.
Sitting on the seat after dialing 911 and doing nothing is not going to be a 3 lady in the bathroom hostage situation, it will be everyone in the restaurant when the police show up.
I too hope I am never put in that position. I have to pick my targets and not have collateral damage. The BGs have no such restrictions, so spray and pray is OK for them.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
February 29th, 2008 09:20 AM
Sounds right to me.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Les Baer 45
N.R.A. Patron Life Member
February 29th, 2008 10:10 AM
You would not face any legal issues in any locality of which I am aware, and the fact that you provided a means of distraction for the majority to possible escape without harm means kudos to you.
Originally Posted by outdoorlover127
If it were me, I would dial 911, leave the phone open....the next sound that the operator hears is me shooting at BG1...and if I can get an aimed shot off it would be for BG1's head. Following this I would exit the booth or table and take up a point where I can watch the bathroom exit for the other two. If they come out with hostages I will evaluate and look for an opening to shoot them....they shoot a hostage and the one uncovered will be shot.
In this situation you have to realize that you already have a deadly force situation...as long as YOU do not shoot an innocent person, you have no real reason to fear. Yet another reason to practice, practice, practice.....and to take advanced firearms tactical training to challenge not only your firearm skills, but also your mental conditioning. Having a firearm and not using it CAN lead to it's own debilitating emotional repercussions as you relive an incident where perhaps you could have helped prevent the loss of life to another, or perhaps saved some person from being raped and abused.
Just my $0.02 worth of diatribe, however, I will not shrink from doing what is right and honorable....even if it means risking myself. If my family is with me....well, all the more reason to fight to the last breath protecting them!
February 29th, 2008 10:19 AM
Take out BG #1 at first chance. As said, unless they had mentioned rape, I wouldn't even consider that. To me, BG's that take a restaurant hostage are trying to get in and get out, I would probably think of execution or something like that.
The OP said he wasn't there, and from what everybody is saying, they are assuming that BG's let everybody sit at their tables and keep on with their meal? That doesn't sound realistic to me. More likely they told everybody to get on the floor, and took the girls from there, in which case you would be laying on the floor, and not have the option to look around and get your bearings and plan everything. I doubt I would be patient enough to find out what is going on. I might try a 1 on 3 situation, and hope there might be somebody else in the restaurant carrying. As soon as I lay down on stomoach with hands on head or whatever they demand, I have put myself in a place where I cannot resist at all without probably taking a shot as I move.
In a situation like this, most people go with the flow hoping it will be just a robbery until they are face down and it's too late to resist.
It's great if the BG's let you continue to sit at your table and finish your meal, I just don't envision that as the way it happened...Anybody know any of the details of this one?
February 29th, 2008 10:47 AM
That is along the lines I'm thinking. Take out the BG by himself them imediatly move to cover and take a position on the room where the other 2 BG's are. First one who pops his head out gets some lead. 3rd BG, we'll have to see how that goes.
Originally Posted by retsupt99
February 29th, 2008 10:56 AM
Its a great situation to place here. I think it comes down to what each of us could live with. You just hope and pray that there is no loss of life concerns the good people. I agree with the cell phone today is our greates link for help. That is the LEO job and most are highly trained for this type of situation. If the cops corner the BG inside, it's going to be ugly. Evil wins when good people do nothing.
Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.
Senior Instructor for Tactical and Defensive of Texas
February 29th, 2008 11:02 AM
dialing 911 on a cell does no good unless you can give your location....it's a cell, all 911 knows is that you are in a several block wide area, at minimum.
February 29th, 2008 12:41 PM
Calling 911 definitly helps, even in my little place they can narrow down where you are by the call signal.
I will mention also though - look at the ladies department store in / near Chicago a month ago - he took them in the back to execute them.
Hard to say until you are in the position, but you just don't know, nor do you know at the time if they are being killed by a means such as strangulation before they come back out and collect more victims...
But just remember, there may be another one waiting in a car outside, or for other reasons. Don't "funnel" if you are in a situation of any kind, keep your head moving and looking for ways out of it!
February 29th, 2008 01:32 PM
Assuming this was me, am I alone in this restaurant or am I there with my family (wife and two kids 1 yr.old son and 5 yr. old daughter)?
My thoughts toward a response differ as based on the above being inclusive to your scenario.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
February 29th, 2008 02:03 PM
I have a few questions in regards to a few posts on this topic. It takes this scenario in a different direction, so I will post a new thread.
Myself, I believe I would take a different route than most here, especially if my family were with me. I think I would take out BG #1 and then have family and myself make a hasty retreat. The others may do as they like, but as someone once said, "I carry for me and my own". As callous as it may seem, I am not there to protect and save everyone, just my own. If they have decided to bank their lives on the police, so be it; but it's not my job and I'm not paid to do it.
February 29th, 2008 02:37 PM
Do you remember if they forced everybody to the ground, or if they let you stay at your table? It would make a huge difference in chance of success. Also, if the women were taken while you were already on the ground, there isn't much you could do about it from there.
February 29th, 2008 02:39 PM
I'm a gamer. I've also been a shooter for most of my life. I've played paintball since 1987. I have spent more time playing first-person shooter type video games such as America's Army and Battlefield 2 than I like to admit.
I'm not a Navy Seal or a LEO by any means, but I have a tremendous amount of tactical experience when it comes to these "simulated" scenarios. Drawing from that experience, I would act similar to KenpoTex.
Firstly, there is only one BG in the room and he is responsible for watching the entire room. Certainly there will be opportunity to draw and get shots on target before he even realizes you are armed. From what I gather, they didn't expect anyone in the restaurant to be armed because they didn't gather you all up and pat you down one by one.
The first mistake they made was separating and leaving only one gunman to defend against an unknown number of potentially armed citizens. You should draw discreetly when he is not looking your direction. Shoot him ASAP then immediately move to a position of cover that allows you a line of fire in the direction the other two BGs will exit the back room.
Chances are very good that because they must exit the back room that they are behind a doorway or down a hall. I don't care how many of them there are, if they can only come out one at a time you have a tremendous tactical advantage: Shooting from cover at a known target in a known location. Numbers mean nothing in such a case, just ask the glorious 300.
They have no such advantage. They don't know what they are up against. They don't even know if they are up against anything at all! As soon as one peeks out he is dead, assuming you are a decent shot. That leaves it 1vs1 and you still have the upper hand. The remaining BG does have the potential to take hostages, but the potential for death has been greatly reduced. I'd take that chance every time.
The truth is, you DON'T know that these guys aren't going to start executing people. Sure, nobody died but that was lucky. Many times, things don't end that well. From the thousands of hours of my life wasted strategizing in simulated combat against other real human beings, I feel confident that A good shooter with a clear head could have defeated these guys handily.
They obviously weren't very smart. After all, they made so many strategic mistakes and left themselves open in so many ways. They were asking for it, and I would probably give it to them if I was forced into a similar situation.
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