This is a discussion on Real Incident within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ...
There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.
Who is John Galt?
Definitely a disturbing scenario and I sure hope I never have to find out what I'd do or not do!
I tend to think taking out BG #1 sounds good but then again... no innocent victims died in your scenario. Starting a gun battle raises the odds considerably of an innocent being wounded or killed.
But as things were unfolding, no one knew that these BG's weren't going to kill anyone.
Yup, I'm gonna stick with, I have no idea what I'd do!
ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!
"A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
I agree that BG's win when GG's do nothing but consider the following:
I am likely with my family in this restaurant and if not I'm sure as heck no good to them dead. So:
1. BG1 is dead - method already laid out nicely by the other posts.
2. Order family to move out of the restaurant via the closest exit away from the bathroom while I cover their exit always keeping clear (if possible) eye on bathroom door.
3. Exit and clear restaurant, get to safe distance and cover and call 911.
Biggest problem I see is that shooting BG1 may cause mass screaming stampede out of restaurant and in that case family and my exit may be delayed or blocked. Then may have to face BG 2/3. Still putting myself between them and MY family.
But again, IMHO the primary goal of carry if for personal protection which carries over to family who are with me. I have no legal duty to protect the sheep and I am no good to my family dead. I will protect myself and my family and if the sheep benefit, then they can count themselves blessed that I was with them that day.
The old sheriff was attending an awards dinner when a lady commented on his wearing his sidearm. 'Sheriff, I see you have your pistol. Are you expecting trouble?' 'No Ma'am. If I were expecting trouble, I would have brought my rifle.'
I too believe the decision to shoot #1 was made when 2&3 took the ladies to the RR.
My objective would be to take out #1. Move to a point of cover and contain 2&3 till help arrives or take them out as the come out.
I would move to a point of exit as part of my cover if possible. My thought being if the 2 BG's come out with hostages and I can not contain them, I will back out and attempt to keep them in the bldg. till help arrives. The oversight here would be the chaos of exiting people after BG#1 goes down. There may be no other opportunity but to get out yourself.
Two other problems not related to so far are:
1. Is there a 4th BG outside in a getaway car.
2. Howe do you get out of the building without getting shot by a BG or the LEO when they arrive.
I know this is a little further than the scenario took us, but assuming you would not know the intent ot the 2 in the restroom, you would have to consider the 2 quiestions above.
When BG#1 goes down and you run out, that put's 2 armed BG's at your's and 30 other family's back! Shoot #1 and pinn down the other two till everyone leaves the building. BG in the car sees 40-50 people running out he is leaving. I very seriously think he will start blasting or enter. They are dumb enough to give you the advantage I wouldn't return the favor.
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
cdwolf, you may have missed my point. The reason I suggest setting up close to an exit is if the 2 BG's cannot be contained ie: they come out with hostages and there is no target, you may be able to exit and contain them in the bldg. until help arrives.
Backing out could save a hostage from being killed and also lets the professionals handle the situation.
My questions relate to being able to determine if there is a 4th BG or, how to back out without being shot by LEO.
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
If all were not sheep and say 4 of the people had CCW - it would be an interesting to see what the outcome would be.
Jang and Berney
Sorry I have been out of town or I would have replied sooner.
As I remember, they were Not forced down, just kept at bay.
I never eat alone so either it is with GF or our families, up to 6 people, ages from 11 to 21 for the kids.
I can't rem how the one got away, I guess just ran out the door.
The plans for taking out BG1 have been described well already and I would do the same.
But I sure would hope that when I acted there would be someone in that restaurant that would come to my aid. I know I would help... it's a shame to think that there were, what, 30-40 people in the restaurant and no one did anything... even if 40 people were unarmed, BG1 could have been easily disarmed by 3 or 4 guys in a rush.
If you're sitting there under your table and you look over to see the guy with rage in his eyes... especially the left one, which is twitching just a little bit, just know that we are good to go...
All assuming, of course, that the three that entered the restaurant were the only hostiles involved. Goes bad when you turn to the bathroom and 2 guys come in opening fire from the front door. Now you and a few unlucky patrons that you were going to 'save' are outflanked, out gunned, and probably dead. Personally I would wait it out. It's a bad situation but the risk of a contingent is too high.
Last edited by Captain Crunch; May 15th, 2008 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Deleted a language workaround.
I would hate to encounter a situation like this one. I think I would try for the cellphone first and that would get help started in your direction. You never know what the bad guys have in mind. They might not want to leave witnesses. I would shoot the look out first and then cover the bathrooms while getting the rest of the patrons out of the building. Remember you have the cops on the way and the two thugs are trapped.
I, as others have said hope I am never in this situation myself but you never know.
If I am chances are my wife will be with me, that gives us two GG's because she also carries. That being the case, the one of us that have the best shot at BG1 will take him out while the other covers the back for other possible BG's. The first shooter will focus on the door that BG 2 and 3 will be coming out of to hopefully take them out as they exit to see what is going on.
if i was carrying, and my girlfriend was one of the women they were trying to take, then they would be carrying multiple body bags out of that place. one of them may be me, but i would be taking at least 2 BG's with me. having said that, then morally i would be obligated to do the same for any woman that they tried to take. that restaurant would have been a nasty seen. rape is an intolerable crime, and if i'm willing to kill to protect my girlfriend/mother/sister/etc from it then i should be willing to do the same for anyone elses wife/girlfriend/mother/sister/daughter.