Real Incident

This is a discussion on Real Incident within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi this is my first post and this incident keeps bothering me even though it happened about 4 years ago. I keep trying to figure ...

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Thread: Real Incident

  1. #1
    New Member Array outdoorlover127's Avatar
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    Real Incident

    Hi this is my first post and this incident keeps bothering me even though it happened about 4 years ago.
    I keep trying to figure out how I would respond, but I have no answers.

    I do not yet and didn't then have a carry permit, so I don't carry,,,Yet, should be coming soon.

    I wasn't there so I will do my best to be as accurate as I can.

    A local resturant on a Friday or Sat night, any night will do.
    3 BG's come in, all armed with handguns.
    They terroize the patrons and then 2 of them take 3 Ladies into the bathroom and take advantage, leaving one armed BG in the common area keeping everyone else fearing what is going to happen.

    After the two finish the 3rd BG has his fun, then they rob and leave.

    I just have no idea what I would do in this case, can't use cell, couldn't shoot without alearting the other 2 and endagering the ladies.

    If I remember correctly, one person escaped and alerted LEO.
    It was a very sad time for this city and for the innocent people.
    Please help me find a way to help if I am ever in this situation.
    Thank's

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    I would think it would be realistic to use a cell phone under the table as one BG controlling a whole restaurant would have to keep turning. It should be possible to call 911, maybe not to talk to the dispatcher unless there was background noise,i.e. jukebox, etc. I don't know if I would have engaged the BGs, most likely not, even as a LEO.I would be a good witness, especially if my family was there with me. A 3 on 1 gunfight with innocents all around is very bad juju.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Member Array Slimz13's Avatar
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    Tough situation no doubt..

    Ensuring YOUR safety is easy - wait for a distraction, draw and double tap COM from prone. As you've pointed out this does leave the two ladies trapped in a room with two men who may now have motive to execute.

    You could try and wager that the two BG's in the bathroom would hear the shots and assume that BG#3 had just executed someone, come out of the bathroom to see whats going on - but thats a big wager..

    On the other hand - you have no idea what BG#1 &2 are dong to the ladies in the restroom. For all you know they could be kneeling them down to shoot them in the back of the head, then proceed to do the same to you. In my mind the ladies are already 'endangered' and doing nothing is as likely to get them killed as not.

    To me its a bad situation all around. I would have to assume that they intend to execute some or all of the patrons one or two at a time. Like Mulle said it would depend on if i was there with my family or not. If so i would draw under the table and play it from there.
    If not Wait for even a small opportunity, draw and double tap the lookout then immediately turn and T up on the bathroom doorway and wait for #2 or #3 to peek his head out while quietly telling the other patrons to exit the building without crossing my line of fire.
    Its best if the two in the bathroom don't get a clear indication that their man outside is out of commission. keep them guessing - Was the lookout shot? or did he execute someone?

    I would be sacrificing the two ladies in the bathroom to ensure that everyone else got out alive. Who knows, theres still a chance that both perps could exit the bathroom and give you a chance to drop them both, but it seems unlikely. If they come out and spray the room with gunfire though, the body count could go much higher than 5..

    Tough choices all around..

  5. #4
    New Member Array outdoorlover127's Avatar
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    Mulle
    I had thought about the cell, just dial and leave it open or something..


    Restaurant was small about the size of 2 Wendy's maybe a little more. So 1 BG should cover fairly easily as long as he was alert.

    The place closed shortly after because of decline of business.

    It just bothers me that things like this can happen and I can find no way to help.

    Thanks for all the ideas for future though, a lot of what I read is way different than I would have thought to do.

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    Member Array rmarcustrucker's Avatar
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    Don't care if your Chuck Norris, 3 vs 1 with innocents around and a few as hostages in the bathroom is a no-win-by-the-seat-of-your-pants-scenario. Rule #1, no one died. It is sad and very frighting that women got raped. In this situation I would say I was under immediate threat, but unless they are about to kill someone, I wouldn't act out of fear of starting the gun fight that puts people, including myself, at deadly risk.
    1 shooter is easier, 2 is questionable, but with the right act of suprise, but 3 is darn near impossible for most highly trained people.

    Cell phone dialed on 911 under the table would be great. I'd be worried about them calling back if I called and hung up, but I would probably call and NOT hang up and hope some background noice would come over. They should be able to get a general idea of where the call came from and atleast they would know that SOMETHING was up. But if cops did come, then you might have hostage situation

    I asked myself the same question when I heard of the "gang" of kids on bicycles that surrounded a guy in Akron, Ohio. Great for us all to think of scenario's like that, but sorry, I don't think this one is easy.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    The cell would still be viable. If the place is fairly full, 1 BG would have trouble controlling even a Wendy's size restaurant if the seating is spread out where one location couldn't see all the tables. If the restaurant is set up like a fast food place where all the tables are visible from one location, that makes it more difficult. If the BG was able to see all the tables, that might change my actions. Certainly, if I hear gunshots and I'm carrying(99% of the time away from my house)all bets are off as the BG's might start executing everyone to avoid any witnesses.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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    I would probably react differently (even if my wife was a hostage)...when threats and rapes start...the war starts. When one guy stays alone...he's dead...then we'll see what the others do.

    I would expect no less if I were the hostage in the rear for some reason...shoot the suckers...what happens...happens!

    No one died, right, but that was no guarantee at the time. I would rather have a dead BG and be prepared for the others when they exit from the back room...two are going to be dead for sure...the last guy is not going to know how to judge the situation...
    I know, this is all speculation...and I'm speculating.

    What would you do if someone was running away with your kid or grandkid? Take the shot, with possible harm to the kid, or let the kid go with the BG? Sorry, but I'm not letting that happen, not in today's world...these scumbags kill without reason...there is no way to tell the ending...
    I'm going to take a stand!

    God, I hope I never have to make a decision like any possible scenario above.

    Stay armed...think fast...stay safe!
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    Welcome to the forum. Good post/sad situation. Like so many incidents/scenarios it's difficult to say exactly what might be best without actually being there, seeing and sensing the situation.

    Generally speaking I would hope that my situational awareness would be high enough that I noticed and prepared myself for these guys as they entered. At the moment of them entering would be the time to deter their behavior somehow before they've had time to completely dominate the entire restaurant. Sadly I can see how easy it would be for three guys to wander in, spread out, and suddenly take over the restaurant and the unprepared customers.

    My fire is raging over the "ladies in the bathroom" segment and as I mentioned before I can't speculate accurately on how successful intervening would be. Intervening could range from actually neutralizing 3 BG's and/or causing innocent victims to be killed? A BG approaching our table and selecting one of my family members will be "knocking on death's door".
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I would probably react differently (even if my wife was a hostage)...when threats and rapes start...the war starts. When one guy stays alone...he's dead...then we'll see what the others do.

    I would expect no less if I were the hostage in the rear for some reason...shoot the suckers...what happens...happens!

    No one died, right, but that was no guarantee at the time. I would rather have a dead BG and be prepared for the others when they exit from the back room...two are going to be dead for sure...the last guy is not going to know how to judge the situation...
    I know, this is all speculation...and I'm speculating.

    What would you do if someone was running away with your kid or grandkid? Take the shot, with possible harm to the kid, or let the kid go with the BG? Sorry, but I'm not letting that happen, not in today's world...these scumbags kill without reason...there is no way to tell the ending...
    I'm going to take a stand!

    God, I hope I never have to make a decision like any possible scenario above.

    Stay armed...think fast...stay safe!
    Great post. AFAIC, everyone in that restaurant was extremely lucky. When people start getting taken to "the back room," they often don't come out alive.

    Everyone always says, "If I thought they were going to kill people I'd..." The problem is that you won't know that until they start executing people and by that time, you're playing catch-up.

    My answer based on the OP would be to take out the one that's by himself, and then either go hunting or try to move into postition to ambush #2 and #3 when they come to see what's going on (this would also be a good time for everyone else to get the hell out of Dodge).
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    RetSup, I wouldn't allow my daughter or wife to be taken. Like you said, I hope I'm never put in that situation. However, I don't think I would shoot at the 1 BG when the other 2 are in the bathroom with victims/hostages. It is a hard situation to contemplate from a computer screen.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Kenpo, I agree that you are playing catch-up if they do start executing people. However, taking out BG 1 while BG 2&3 are in the bathroom might make them execute the victims. Very hard situation to be in.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #12
    Member Array Slimz13's Avatar
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    As calloused as it sounds, taking out the 1 lookout and covering the door gives gives everyone in the building precious seconds to get away. What effect it has on the two ladies is hard to say. but frankly if people are being taken into the back room, even two women, my presumption is they're being executed, not raped. Hindsight tells us that the women were only raped, but were you to be there at the time you wouldn't know that.

    The more i think about the more realize that rape probably wouldn't even cross my mind as an explanation for the thugs separating the two women from the group.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I would probably react differently (even if my wife was a hostage)...when threats and rapes start...the war starts. When one guy stays alone...he's dead...then we'll see what the others do.

    I would expect no less if I were the hostage in the rear for some reason...shoot the suckers...what happens...happens!

    No one died, right, but that was no guarantee at the time. I would rather have a dead BG and be prepared for the others when they exit from the back room...two are going to be dead for sure...the last guy is not going to know how to judge the situation...
    I know, this is all speculation...and I'm speculating.

    What would you do if someone was running away with your kid or grandkid? Take the shot, with possible harm to the kid, or let the kid go with the BG? Sorry, but I'm not letting that happen, not in today's world...these scumbags kill without reason...there is no way to tell the ending...
    I'm going to take a stand!

    God, I hope I never have to make a decision like any possible scenario above.

    Stay armed...think fast...stay safe!
    +1 If he's alone hes gone and you know where the other two are coming from you hve a huge tactical advantage, just don't miss
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

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    I shoot BG #1. There is a good chance the other two will think that their friend shot someone. I ambush BG 2 and 3 outside of the bathroom if possible, if not then I get the heck out of Dodge!
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    The way I see it we are not talking about a 3 on 1 gun fight here. The two BG that are with the ladies in the bathroom are a non factor as far as dealing with the lookout. So we have a 1:1 where we are choosing the timing and (hopefully) we are the only one that knows it is going to happen. After BG #3 is neutralized, the other patrons now have a chance to bug out, call 9-1-1, hit the salad bar, whatever they want.
    One possibility I haven't seen mentioned is that a firearms competent diner might now pick up the BG's weapon that he is no longer using. We may well now be looking at 2:1 in our favor if the guys in the bathroom come out one at a time. If no one else jumps in to help, you could have another 1:1 where again we have the tactical advantage in knowing which door BG#1 is going to come out of. Or worst case, it is 2:1 against us. But even in that scenario, they have to clear a doorway. We don't. They don't call doorways "funnel of death" for nothing. Unless there is another door or window they can use to get out they have a very serious problem now. We have a big room with lots of concealment and possibly some cover. They, on the other hand have a choice, stay where they are and wait for the police to come get them, or cross a specific two square feet of the floor. Time is on our side, and the clock is ticking. Every second that goes by the police get closer and their chance of escape diminishes.
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