From Bad to Worse: The Unthinkable
This is a discussion on From Bad to Worse: The Unthinkable within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If any kind of battle over my gun ensued I would immediately go for the TDI.
And I agree that an AGGRESSIVE and immediate attack ...
March 2nd, 2008 05:39 PM
If any kind of battle over my gun ensued I would immediately go for the TDI.
And I agree that an AGGRESSIVE and immediate attack might be the difference between life and death in that instance.
Not to mention that movement would be my best friend at the moment. Anything to keep the bad guy trying to follow me instead of leading me with the muzzle of my own gun.
Movement, paired with a vigorous knife attack might be enough to stay alive as long as I don't associate loosing my gun to loosing the fight and/or the war.
My final hope would be that he knows nothing about my handgun and doesn't know where the thumb safety is. All the better for me if he wastes even a quarter of a second in confusion that he can't get the gun to fire.
A TDI in one hand, a Cold Steel in the other, I hope I'd be able to get Wilson back.
I'd feel REALLY crummy about loosing him in the first place.
When doing gun retention drills with JD I lost my gun once and it was after a huge struggle. I did feel really crummy about it but I guess if one is to be a well-rounded, well-trained individual they plan for things like this.
March 2nd, 2008 05:39 PM
March 2nd, 2008 06:11 PM
hold on to that gun while using that pretty tactical knife in my pocket to free him of unwanted fluid. because I figure if Im gonna die it DAM SURE wont be by my own gun!!
The words can't and impossible are honey only to lips of losers. "Keith Matt(Me)"
Glock 22/ PT145/ Pardner Pump Tactical/ Century AK-74
March 2nd, 2008 08:44 PM
Fight like I've never fought before. Anthing I could do to survive.
March 2nd, 2008 09:27 PM
There are several things I could/would do. Depending on the circumstance, I would try to hit my mag release (mag safety, and I carry an extra),while trying to twist the gun as much as I could. Once the mag is out, the gun becomes a club, so worrying about getting shot is out. I do know some karate and h2h, but like said before most of that goes out the window in the heat of the moment. I'm a small guy, so speed, flexibility and agility are my attributes. Also, I carry a CRKT M16-14SFA, a Kershaw Blur, and a Cold Steel Recon 1, and soon a Ka-Bar TDI to replace my CRKT Ryan Plan B. Any one of those would suffice for me to try emergency plastic surgery. I also carry a least two flashlights and a metal pen that make excellent kubatons.
My best friend (a cop) and I are planning some retention practice soon to see what we can come to. I've "wrastled" with him (before he was a cop) and another friend before (both bigger than me) and held them both off until they sat on me with my legs and arms around their necks. I don't know what we will use as a practice gun, not sure an "unloaded" gun with snap caps would be the best idea.
Gun control can be blamed in part for allowing 9/11 to happen.
"Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum" (Latin)- "If you want peace, prepare for war".
March 3rd, 2008 12:05 AM
If a BG gets his hand(s) on my gun I'm going to hold on as tight as I can with my strong hand while the fingers of my weak hand are gouging out his eyeballs. That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.
Last edited by HarleyDriver; March 3rd, 2008 at 12:12 PM.
March 3rd, 2008 10:05 AM
I would fight - attack as hard as I can, and try to put the BG down before he takes me out. I mean, bring into play all of the dirty tricks I've ever heard of - kick in the groin, rake the eyes, chop across the larynx, everything. I will go down swinging.
Of course, it's probably all over by then, anyway, but I hope to spit in his eye as I expire...
"Bad spellers of the world - untie!"
DAV Life member, NRA Life member
Springfield XD 9mm Sub-Compact
Taurus PT111 Millennium Pro 9mm
March 3rd, 2008 10:52 AM
Get close and cut him/her very badly. The mantra is "Deep, wide and consistent".
Remember all those discussions about how dangerous a man with a knife is at close proximity? Well, I'm the guy with the knife now.
March 3rd, 2008 11:07 PM
hold on to gun with right hand pull taser with left hand and do drive stun technique.
March 4th, 2008 02:09 AM
Vulcan nerv pinch, seriously.
In all honesty, I'd go for his eyes while trying the make sure the gun was pointed away from me..
-Never insult a man you are not prepared to fight, and never fight a man you are not prepared to kill.
March 4th, 2008 02:10 AM
The video of the Krav magra guy has some good points that I would use, Attempting to regain the weapon SEEMS LIKE THE BEST MOVE, I dont agree,
First redirect, away from your body, When you redirect grasp that slide like your life depends on it, because it does, yes the weapon can go off, yes you are going to get cut/burned/maybe shot. If the perp took your weapon there can only be one reason. Your grip on that weapon is your only guarantee you wont get shot again durring the melee your about to have. Dont believe me, no worries, get yourself a thick glove and a training partner and hold that slide while he fires downrange, see if the gun goes into battery again. OH you are going to get hurt, at this stage fear of injury is minor, survival should be taking over.
The technique shown for breaking the finger does work if you can actually use it, but unless you are practicing that AND the perp allows it you wont succeed, so use that other hand for damage, blows, gouges, choking, Carry that blade everyone gave you grief about when you carry a gun too? USE IT.
IF/when I get my weapon back I am capable of racking the slide with one hand, but if I dont have time for that I got myself a nice club and it will be used. By the time my weapon is back where it should have been I am either dead or my attacker is wishing he was, And for the record If I got my weapon back I would make darn sure he was not able to get it back from me a second time, a person who is willing to attempt to disarm you is an imminent threat as long as they are within 12 yards as far as I am concerned.
March 4th, 2008 02:39 AM
I skimmed fast through this forum so sorry if repeating, not intentional.
A. Your pistol, shotgun, or rifle can be taken or batted out of the way, or knocked down very easily. Once you accept that, its on to the next step. (You can try it with unloaded airsoft or rubber gun etc. Airsofts are nice due to hammer drop, you can test human reaction time, by a person actually trying to press a trigger and when the hammer drops (click) game is over, its not fast...) I have had average people with no experience batting guns out with ease, and the guy holding the gun was ready for it, I even had the BG tell him when he was going to do it!! And he still couldn't, the gun didn't fall but BG got his knife or gun to bear, if none (like some exercises) the BG in 60% (these are avg joes) demonstrated the ability to on the ground get gun away or demonstrate a H2H move that was demovolizing most commonly a blow to stomach or the scary one no one thinks about.... the throat!
B. Don't let perp/bg get that close, the police and military know the threat of even a knife at a distance, in that a person can travel a distance fast and unexpected. It is why a person with a knife can be and has been killed by police. It varies for depts and the officers own personal safety level at the scene at that time at that event etc. but I think its 8-10ft, I know alot prefer 20-30ft, if they get within that, they can do bodily harm to you with a knife. The news the other day (there was a police shooting a bg with a knife said 30ft so I am going to have to look again) (I am glad the news said that, the other times they tried to make the police out to be bad:( I would add that their hands in that range is justifiable as a weapon, only if its one on one, but courts frown on that type of police "murder" :) Most of time in hands two or more police tackle him, the best part is when one steps on the neck, simple, easy and effective. , while the other cuffs. Seen it done many times, the perp didn't fight anymore.
C. I urge people to watch Collateral, with Tom Cruise. I am not a big Tom Cruise fan, nor is his technique perfect, but the guy who trained him is ex-SAS and its commonly available medium for people to see this. Tom Cruise batting the gun and shooting the two BGs with is briefcase in the alley is real and definately can happen, the club scene is generally realistic, and you can take down a person that fast, like he does to the first two, although caution should be exercised in that a body is not a good form of protection for bullets and taking on that many hostiles wasn't a good idea but they had to make it a movie. I don't think a real assassin would do that. Also, the end train scene was "interesting" everyone should have been dead. That is not the point, most people I just show that scene or scenes and they realize hey, that is fast!
D. Think ahead of the criminal, only pros/combat veterans etc. can reliably do this, so we need something else.... ahh yes training! Train to not let people in that zone, or you will fire, (warn them first if possible and follow good shoot rules etc., I am taking this for granted we know that) Train in a good H2H method, karate isn't always reliable and the list goes on you need a mix (which was already covered), most people will degenerate into free for all etc.due to adrenaline and panic. Hopefully you will remember something and it will work. For those pros, they will think ahead and be able to know exactly how they can get in and out and do the max amnt of damage. This is done by releasing aggression and immediately turning off, this also needs practice and some pretty in depth almost real training to curb adrenaline, tunnel vision, locking up of actions etc. Just how we need to train muscles when shooting the pros train to immediately at disarmament do a set move, like when you stop when you get to a stop sign, it is lightening fast, and you don't want it. They go by the motto if they are close of enough to do that (disarm) I am close enough to mess them up, and they do. Broken arms, noses, or legs are common depending on the height of the BG.
They had lots of hrs of training to do that and it is automatic, most nor can I do that. Most people will fight for your life, there are no rules just surviaval.
If you see the pros in action, it is amazing. I have, it is like it didn't happen, it was that fast, if i would have blinked it would have been gone. They know their limits but still don't like taking the risk for a H2H disarming of a hostile, nor do they like to get in close because it means they can be disarmed or harmed by hidden weapons, they do it for quiet, crowd control or other reasons in that discharging a firearm (the safest option) may lead to more chaos and/or a lessened level of security. They are paid/required to take that risk. We aren't stay alive and stay safe.
For us, we need to not let people get close, if gun goes bye bye make sure it isn't a BG who is trained to reverse the shotgun on you (I know that is impossible, just being facetious), and then fight H2H, there are no rules, training helps but full moves and/or sets probably won't be utilized. Utter aggression is key mixed in with survival instincts. Hit fast, hit hard, and hopefully you can surprise him as he did you.
Stay safe, stay armed, study H2H and at least think of it, I think too many times people think gun will solve everything but there are times when H2H could solve it, also a gun won't always be there and its easy to not have it in the most needful time; we can be disarmed that is a fact of life, and drawing a BUG IMHO cannot be done in the time frame needed to react to the disarmament of you, unless you are ahead of the game and somehow predicted or where ready with hand in pocket etc. for it...?? But if you knew that your main gun would be disarmed... right:) Have fun and stay safe!
no harm meant to anyone just some food for thought
Last edited by Captain Crunch; March 4th, 2008 at 01:37 PM.
Reason: Deleted a language workaround.
March 5th, 2008 07:18 AM
H2H? eyes, nose, throat, groin, ears, anything and everything I can reach tear, bite, stomp, kick or gouge.
And fight like your life may depend on it.
Never stop until the BG can no longer function.
There is no second place, only winners and losers.
An hour or two experience in H2H as a USMC grunt and street cop
Last edited by Beans; March 5th, 2008 at 07:19 AM.
Reason: spelling error
March 5th, 2008 07:07 PM
BG disarmed me? The fight is on and I would do anything to make sure I was the one left breathing. In a fight, I believe the following: The only fair fight is the one you lose. Eyes, groin, throat.
You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt
May 26th, 2008 10:05 AM
This is why it's important to study some form of unarmed self-defense. I'm an avid karate student (even at 35 yrs. old) and a military veteran. While the fancy jump kicks and flying-through-the-air techniques I'm taught probably wouldn't help me 99% of the time, it's the spirit of the training that would come in handy. Training for situations like these will give you a higher degree of confidence if you ever had to use that training. Martial artists don't possess some secret zen spirituality that makes them able to dodge bullets. They are just more absent of fear than the average joe because they've trained for situations like these, which might give them just enough edge to matter.
I think if you carry a weapon you have a responsibility to not only yourself but to anyone else that might become a victim to train on how to overcome someone going for your weapon.
May 26th, 2008 10:19 AM
Agreed, if your not willing to fight like hell, possibly to the death to protect yourself, and get your gun back from a bad guy, then I don't see why your carrying one in the first place.
Originally Posted by rocky
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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