A debate with a friend - Page 2

A debate with a friend

This is a discussion on A debate with a friend within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by chuck brick On the assumption that he is not Anti-Gun (doesn't sound like he is): He sounds like he is part of ...

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Thread: A debate with a friend

  1. #16
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuck brick View Post
    On the assumption that he is not Anti-Gun (doesn't sound like he is):
    He sounds like he is part of the school of thought that says, "Don't pull your handgun unless you're going to use it!" In that context, he's right. You sound like you're more in line with my own belief: "Don't pull your weapon unless you're willing to use it!" which makes you right in your (our ) school of thought.
    Personally, this is why I disagree with the first (Don't pull your handgun unless you're going to use it) school of thought: The intent is ultimately the same, but the semantics imply that you MUST use it if you un-holster it. That is why I say, have always said, and will always say, "Don't pull your weapon unless you're WILLING to use it!" The message in this version is that you can de-escalate at any time from the initial presentation, up until the BG gets on the bus and goes home.
    Of course it's semantics. Words are what make us what we are.

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
    I worked for a guy years ago who shared this same school of thought. He owned a pizza/party store where some guys who had robbed one of our drivers and beat him up pretty good, showed up in the parking lot looking for more trouble. We all ran outside before they had a chance to come into the store and cause more problems. These guys were still by there vehicle with baseball bats in hand, and my boss got between them and the rest of us (I think there were three or or four us out there with him and most of us were teenagers. I remember him screaming at these guy that the police were already on their way (which they were), he had his hand on his gun but wouldn't pull it. He kept telling these guys to back off because if he pulled his gun he was going to use it.

    I asked him afterwards why he didn't pull his gun out to be ready, and he told me that when he got his CPL (which was very difficult in that county back in the 80's) a police friend of his told him that if he ever had to pull his gun out, to make sure none of the bad guys survived to testify against him. ( no castle doctrine back then either)

    I don't know if he was just trying to mess with the head of a one of his teenage employees (which he liked to do) or if he really believed it, but after hearing this story, it sounds like maybe it is an older school of thought... I guess it might depend on how and when the Sergeant was brought up.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.


  2. #17
    Member Array chuck brick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post
    I worked for a guy years ago who shared this same school of thought. He owned a pizza/party store where some guys who had robbed one of our drivers and beat him up pretty good, showed up in the parking lot looking for more trouble. We all ran outside before they had a chance to come into the store and cause more problems. These guys were still by there vehicle with baseball bats in hand, and my boss got between them and the rest of us (I think there were three or or four us out there with him and most of us were teenagers. I remember him screaming at these guy that the police were already on their way (which they were), he had his hand on his gun but wouldn't pull it. He kept telling these guys to back off because if he pulled his gun he was going to use it.

    I asked him afterwards why he didn't pull his gun out to be ready, and he told me that when he got his CPL (which was very difficult in that county back in the 80's) a police friend of his told him that if he ever had to pull his gun out, to make sure none of the bad guys survived to testify against him. ( no castle doctrine back then either)

    I don't know if he was just trying to mess with the head of a one of his teenage employees (which he liked to do) or if he really believed it, but after hearing this story, it sounds like maybe it is an older school of thought... I guess it might depend on how and when the Sergeant was brought up.

    This doctrine (Don't draw your weapon unless you're going to use it), I believe, was generated for those that cannot show appropriate judgement concerning when "brandishing" is/is not appropriate. If you draw a line that is ABSOLUTE, it is easier for those that are "judgement challenged" to adhere to. I still hold to my own philosophy (Don't draw your weapon unless you're willing to use it) as being equally effective, but more realistic. If the threat retreats, you shouldn't feel "obligated" to fire anything.

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
    Why do I use 230 gr. for my .45acp?
    Because I can't find a source of 250 gr!
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    2 on 1

    21 foot rule

    Draw!!....because if you don't, you won't be able to

    Make sure 911 is being called at the same time--by you!
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array Andy W.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Its two on one.

    I see no point in giving up an advantage...the fact that you are armed with a distance weapon and they are armed with contact weapons.

    No speech.

    Draw and aim. If they persist...shoot.

    You'll be doing the someone else a favor.
    I agree wholeheartedly.
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    No question, draw.....

    ....and given 2 on 1, both armed with deadly weapons, you're very close to shooting too.....prob within a couple of seconds unless they break off immediately!

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array gwhall57's Avatar
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    I would join the folks who, by presenting a firearm in such a situation, cause the BGs to scamper. It's estimated that anywhere from 100,00 to 2 million defensive handgun uses occur per year in America, and end with the presentation of a handgun, and the BGs realizing that they have made the mistake of bringing a knife or a tire-iron to a gunfight.

    If presenting doesn't end the encounter, then, with the 2 of them with deadly weapons accosting me, I would fire.
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  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    2 on 1

    21 foot rule

    Draw!!....because if you don't, you won't be able to

    Make sure 911 is being called at the same time--by you!
    I believe I would wait to call 911 until after the threat is gone. On a 2 on 1 situation, I would not want the added distraction of:
    1. only having one hand on my pistol.
    2. trying to explain what is happening to the dispatcher during an ever evolving situation.

    If that means 2 shot BG's before I get a chance to call 911, then so be it. In the OP's situation, he said nobody was around for miles. Either way, this situation will be resolved one way or another long before the Highway Patrol arrive. I love the added security and added legal standing by having already called 911, but I also have to be realistic about my abilities to multi-task during a situation that could be among the most stressful of my life.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  8. #23
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I don't make a habit of stating the obvious, thus I won't be saying, "I have a gun."

    I will however, even if gun is not displayed, use a "Command Voice" and order the aggressors to "STOP." How it plays from there and whether I have my gun out is undetermined at this time.

    Rest stops are avoided, I use the gas stations. I don't like nefarious felonious activities perpetrated against me and mine and try to avoid them.

    Biker

  9. #24
    Member Array foreveryoung001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Rest stops are avoided, I use the gas stations. I don't like nefarious felonious activities perpetrated against me and mine and try to avoid them.

    Biker
    Just learn how to tap your foot correctly. Tap-tap-tap-tappity-tap=I have gun and I'm willing to use it. Tappy-Tappy-tap-tap=I am a U.S. senator looking for a little fun....


    Sorry.... couldn't resist.
    When the messenger arrives and says 'Don't shoot the messenger,' it's a good idea to be prepared to shoot the messenger, just in case.

  10. #25
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    I'm not waiting to see if the TWO thugs are selling girl scout cookies. I may give a 'stay back' warning...that's it. Further advances will be met with the appropriate application of 'threat repellant'...
    The fact that you see them approaching is a real plus...may people can't spot trouble 'ahead'...

    Stay armed...stay cognizant...stay safe!
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  11. #26
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by foreveryoung001 View Post
    Just learn how to tap your foot correctly. Tap-tap-tap-tappity-tap=I have gun and I'm willing to use it. Tappy-Tappy-tap-tap=I am a U.S. senator looking for a little fun....


    Sorry.... couldn't resist.


  12. #27
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I still can't understand how people equate drawing a weapon and bringing it to bear to waving it around. Did this guy wave his weapon around every time he had to qualify with it?

    Draw the weapon, bring it on target and then give verbal warning if time/distance allow one.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Option 3. Draw and fire. If they get the message in between those 2 steps, all the better..........
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #29
    Member Array Mongoose's Avatar
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    I would draw and hold at low ready while telling them to stop. If they don't stop I will then go to high ready and then make that less then a second decision. (Failure Drill)

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    I believe I would wait to call 911 until after the threat is gone. On a 2 on 1 situation, I would not want the added distraction of:
    1. only having one hand on my pistol.
    2. trying to explain what is happening to the dispatcher during an ever evolving situation.

    If that means 2 shot BG's before I get a chance to call 911, then so be it. In the OP's situation, he said nobody was around for miles. Either way, this situation will be resolved one way or another long before the Highway Patrol arrive. I love the added security and added legal standing by having already called 911, but I also have to be realistic about my abilities to multi-task during a situation that could be among the most stressful of my life.
    911 records all calls.....they can record what is happening...like

    "stop! stop! both of you stay away from me....please put the knife and tire iron down......[bad guy stays stupid crap that indicates they are going to harm you/wife/kids]........<bang> <bang> <bang>...<bang> <bang>

    "Send an ambulance to....."

    I was not intending on having a conversation with the 911 operator
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

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