A debate with a friend

A debate with a friend

This is a discussion on A debate with a friend within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, I had a friendly disagreement with a Staff Sergeant in my shop. We were discussing a ...

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Thread: A debate with a friend

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    A debate with a friend

    Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, I had a friendly disagreement with a Staff Sergeant in my shop. We were discussing a scenario where you're at a rest stop by the interstate, way out in the middle of nowhere (people actually have been killed/abducted at these). Anyway, the scenario is that it's broad daylight, you're at the rest stop standing by your car and stretching, and two men approach. One has a knife and one has a tire iron. They're walking quickly toward you and making threats. You are armed and they don't know it (yet). Here's where the disagreement comes in.

    He said:

    Tell them once, "I've got a gun." Don't make the gun visible at all yet. If they don't believe you and keep coming, pull the gun and shoot them.

    I said:

    No way. Pull the gun, get into your stance, and show them that you mean business. Most likely they'll turn and run away.

    He said:

    "No, no. You never pull a gun out and 'wave it around.'"

    Now, it seems to me that my response is best. I would much rather have those two run away, then I drive away and it's over, than to be forced to kill at least one of them because they thought I was bluffing. Don't even get me started about future ramifications, paperwork, being stalked by the friends or family of the two men, etc.... Further, I hardly consider it to be "waving a gun around" if they're quickly approaching you with clear intent to injure or kill you.

    What do you think?
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    In this scenario, I would draw. They are two, they have weapons, and they are threatening you. I don't see any reason to have a conversation.

    ETA: Thugs at rest stops intend to kidnap and or murder you.

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Human beings don't always read, or listen very well-that's a fact. No sense in wasting your breath "I've got a gun". Pictures ARE worth a thousand words, and good in any language! Show 'em the gun!

  4. #4
    Member Array S3ymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    In this scenario, I would draw. They are two, they have weapons, and they are threatening you. I don't see any reason to have a conversation.

    ETA: Thugs at rest stops intend to kidnap and or murder you.
    Well said.
    "All war is deception" --Sun Tzu
    MOΛΩN ΛABÉ

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    You guys have pretty much reflected my thinking on this. It seems to me that presenting the gun could prevent a death in this case, both mine and/or theirs. And again, not only would I hate to have to deal with the legal ramifications and attorney's fees, whether I'm in the right or wrong, I would also hate the concept of spending the rest of my life second-guessing myself as to whether I had another alternative.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Waving your gun around for "flash" value without any real threat to you, such as in a verbal exchange road rage incident, low level argument with a neighbor, or other non-life threatening exhange is a lot different than drawing your weapon on someone who is actually threatening you while approaching you with weapons or harmful intent in mind.

    If a potential attacker is advancing on you, drawing your weapon would be prudent.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Human beings don't always read, or listen very well-that's a fact. No sense in wasting your breath "I've got a gun". Pictures ARE worth a thousand words, and good in any language! Show 'em the gun!
    exactly!!
    GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

  8. #8
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    +1 on all of the above. You draw the weapon because you are under lethal threat and, depending on the distance, may already be in a position to shoot. Pulling the gun seems a lot more likely than a merely verbal warning to give you the opportunity not to shoot, which is pretty important...
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  9. #9
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    I'd take your approach. By taking the time to yell "I have a gun", they could clear the necessary distance to hurt or kill you. Remember the 21 foot rule.

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    Distinguished Member Array airslot's Avatar
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    To close for missiles, switching to guns

    Draw... Not a time for debate time for action.
    The situation will NEVER BE THE WAY YOU WANT, it WILL BE THE WAY IT IS. You must be FLEXIBLE ENOUGH TO ADAPT and just "DEAL WITH IT".

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array HowardCohodas's Avatar
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    Immunity for defensive display of firearm

    Howard
    I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop!!
    Politically Incorrect Self Defense

  12. #12
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    Its two on one.

    I see no point in giving up an advantage...the fact that you are armed with a distance weapon and they are armed with contact weapons.

    No speech.

    Draw and aim. If they persist...shoot.

    You'll be doing the someone else a favor.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    draw
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
    Georg Büchner

  14. #14
    Member Array chuck brick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    Years ago, when I was in the Air Force, I had a friendly disagreement with a Staff Sergeant in my shop. We were discussing a scenario where you're at a rest stop by the interstate, way out in the middle of nowhere (people actually have been killed/abducted at these). Anyway, the scenario is that it's broad daylight, you're at the rest stop standing by your car and stretching, and two men approach. One has a knife and one has a tire iron. They're walking quickly toward you and making threats. You are armed and they don't know it (yet). Here's where the disagreement comes in.

    He said:

    Tell them once, "I've got a gun." Don't make the gun visible at all yet. If they don't believe you and keep coming, pull the gun and shoot them.

    I said:

    No way. Pull the gun, get into your stance, and show them that you mean business. Most likely they'll turn and run away.

    He said:

    "No, no. You never pull a gun out and 'wave it around.'"

    Now, it seems to me that my response is best. I would much rather have those two run away, then I drive away and it's over, than to be forced to kill at least one of them because they thought I was bluffing. Don't even get me started about future ramifications, paperwork, being stalked by the friends or family of the two men, etc.... Further, I hardly consider it to be "waving a gun around" if they're quickly approaching you with clear intent to injure or kill you.

    What do you think?
    On the assumption that he is not Anti-Gun (doesn't sound like he is):
    He sounds like he is part of the school of thought that says, "Don't pull your handgun unless you're going to use it!" In that context, he's right. You sound like you're more in line with my own belief: "Don't pull your weapon unless you're willing to use it!" which makes you right in your (our ) school of thought.
    Personally, this is why I disagree with the first (Don't pull your handgun unless you're going to use it) school of thought: The intent is ultimately the same, but the semantics imply that you MUST use it if you un-holster it. That is why I say, have always said, and will always say, "Don't pull your weapon unless you're WILLING to use it!" The message in this version is that you can de-escalate at any time from the initial presentation, up until the BG gets on the bus and goes home.
    Of course it's semantics. Words are what make us what we are.

    Stay safe,

    Chuck Brick.
    Why do I use 230 gr. for my .45acp?
    Because I can't find a source of 250 gr!
    http://chucksrantings.blogspot.com/

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Rossman's Avatar
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    Draw. If it stops the threat you are good.

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