What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults. - Page 3

What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults.

This is a discussion on What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; me scrawney, surrounded, 4-1 odds against me, verbal threats. my hand would be on or near my weapon as i go through my standard RUF(rules ...

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Thread: What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults.

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    me scrawney, surrounded, 4-1 odds against me, verbal threats. my hand would be on or near my weapon as i go through my standard RUF(rules for use of force, see below)
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
    -Winston Churchill
    Every well-bred petty crook knows: the small concealable weapons always go to the far left of the place setting.
    -Inara, firefly


  2. #32
    Member Array ld13's Avatar
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    This reminds me of a friend of mine who used to work armed security. He was checking on a property in a bad neighborhood when he was approached by 5 guys (late teens-early 20's). They started by yelling at him from across the parking lot. He continued with his checks and the sure enough the 5 guys approached him and started giving him a hard time. He try to defuse the situation and try to give himself as much space as he could but was limited as the punks had the only real exit blocked. I don't remember what they exactly wanted but he refused and they finally said that they wanted his gun. At that point he drew his gun and pointed at the main guy (the leader) doing the talking and used colorful language to get them to back off. The leader told him, "what you gonna do? you can't shoot us all, we would get you before you shot all of us". My friend told him, "you want the gun, come and take it, but I'm going kill you first and then kill as many of your (bad word) friends as I can". He was dead serious and they knew it, they backed off and said they were only kidding and having fun.

  3. #33
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    I think I would reach out and bust the leader(main talker) right between the running lights with a stiff jab, then as his buddies looked on in disbeleif I would draw and get some seperation. Action is better and faster than re-action, change their game plan and add some time on your side....
    Then yell...BACK AWAY, I DONT WANT TROUBLE, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE...
    If that didn't do it. It would get noisy!
    Last edited by billfromtx; May 6th, 2008 at 07:17 PM.
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I did not see this scenario til just now. This was something I have always meant to ask police officers in the same situation, for years now, but never have.
    One of the most interesting scenarios because savages are unarmed but you are, and we always hesitate to say we would shoot an unarmed person. So this scenario is one of the best I have seen.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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  5. #35
    Member Array CT Kid's Avatar
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    We had an incident in a town near us where a gang of teens beat a man nearly to death. Some of these “boys” were 13 years old. I would certainly show my weapon and tell them to go away. I would certainly shoot if they came at me.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I guess we would have to, no matter what anyone comes along now and says, we would really have no choice.
    Shoot or be killed.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  7. #37
    New Member Array GCall4's Avatar
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    So what's the magic number?

    Alright, so 4 guys that are very intimidating. It sounds like, with that many people you can justify action. However, can you justify with 3 guys doing the same thing, or even 2? Certainly 1 guy would have to show a weapon before you could draw, but what about 2?

  8. #38
    New Member Array GCall4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by billfromtx View Post
    I think I would reach out and bust the leader(main talker) right between the running lights with a stiff jab, then as his buddies looked on in disbeleif I would draw and get some seperation. Action is better and faster than re-action, change their game plan and add some time on your side....
    Then yell...BACK AWAY, I DONT WANT TROUBLE, PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE...
    If that didn't do it. It would get noisy!
    If you ask me, as soon as you punch someone in the face, you give up the right to say "I DON'T WANT TROUBLE."

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCall4 View Post
    Alright, so 4 guys that are very intimidating. It sounds like, with that many people you can justify action. However, can you justify with 3 guys doing the same thing, or even 2? Certainly 1 guy would have to show a weapon before you could draw, but what about 2?
    One guy wouldn't have to show a weapon before the GG could draw. It's about reasonableness and disparity of force. If the GG is 5'4" 130 lbs and the BG is 6'5 275lbs, thats disparity of force. Its not reasonable to expect that the GG could handle being attacked by someone twice his size. It is not a number issue. It is disparity of force. OMO
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #40
    Member Array billfromtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCall4 View Post
    If you ask me, as soon as you punch someone in the face, you give up the right to say "I DON'T WANT TROUBLE."
    I understand...
    This is the last thing I would do before drawing, to gain the tactical advantage and put time and distance on my side. Action over re-action. This is probably the last thing the turds would expect. And would by me enough time to draw with out getting mauled and pummeled. (I hate when that happens)
    Yelling I dont want trouble is for the witnesses and Lawyers.
    USMC 1984-1992
    To err is human.
    To forgive is divine.
    Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

    "It's all about shot placement."- David (Slayer of Goliath)

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    Actually, Bill, that is pretty good, yelling that, so witnesses can tell police hey, the guy tried everything, he even told them that, etc.
    That could come in mighty handy later on or even at the scene once police arrived.
    Good thinking.
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
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    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
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    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  12. #42
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    You're walking alone down a quiet residential street, carrying and in Condition Yellow.. You're approached by a group of older teens/young adults. Let's say there's 3-4 of them. One of them starts asking for money or smokes. You say no and keep walking. They then surround you and start threatening to "escalate" the encounter. You've seen no weapons, but they aren't backing off and are getting louder and more threatening.
    Your fear of bodily harm is genuine and valid, but they've shown no weapons.
    When (or do?) you draw and try to retreat? Is that brandishing at this point? Other options?
    I got thinking about this scenerio last night for some reason. It's never happened to me, but...

    As I read these scenarios I am astounded by what appears to be a lack of "Street Smarts" and ability to verbally spar with someone that is confrontational.

    I'm a country boy, been one since I was bred, and even I can get around in the City of Lost Angles, The Windy City and various other "big cities" with a reputation for street crud.

    So they verbally threaten, have they shown the means to do so? Yes, there is a disparity of force, but no weapons are displayed yet and you had better be taking a beating from them before you draw and fire your gun.

    The media would have a "Field Day" with this one, and not in your favor, IMHO. Let's say you shot the four of them. They will be portrayed as Catholic Choirboys coming home from Choir Practice while you are a lone deranged gunman. Sorry, but that's the way it is, and what you are if you shoot.

    These scenarios get old really fast as there are very few times when one would be justified in producing their weapon unless they were an on duty LEO or forced to respond off duty due to witnessing a felony.

    Biker

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array dcb188's Avatar
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    I see where you are coming from, but once you have three or four guys on you, I don't know if letting that happen would help you, and that can happen real fast.
    I see what you mean, but a victim would just about have to come close to being killed before he or she would ever be justified. I don't think the law requires us to see if we would end up dead. Just my two cents, maybe even one cent :)
    Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
    __________________________________
    Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
    __________________________________
    Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".

  14. #44
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    I'm in 100% agreement with those who said that avoiding this situation is your first step.

    If I'm walking down the street and see 4 young people take interest in me and start walking toward me it's time to do some serious evasion. Being surrounded 4 to 1 is a REALLY REALLY bad situation. Can I duck into a shop? Can I cross the street? Can I do anything to avoid being cornered?

    But, as the scenario is written, somehow that wasn't possible and now I'm surrounded.

    First, the two words that should be in every carriers dictionary, repeated in a very loud, stern voice while getting into a defensive posture, "BACK OFF!!" You aren't yelling obscenities, you are verbalizing that you are serious, you are not threatening them with any harm, you are communicating clearly your wishes, and if that fails, condition red just went to condition black and we are looking at a potential, "to the triggers" moment here.

    If, "BACK OFF!!" doesn't work it's fight or flight and in my condition we are looking more at fight cause I can't 'flight' worth a darned.

    As a woman who's responsible for not only her own life but the life of my unborn child, there is no way I'm letting them lay a hand on me. Damage to me means damage to my child but I can't be dumb about it either.

    I should try to put distance between us if I can and keep all four of them in my view. I may even repeat my command to back off.

    Whether gun or knife comes first is determined on how close they are and what my options are.

    I don't want to shoot or cut anyone, but if I draw I'm certainly ready to do either. If they decide to end the engagement in the millisecond before my finger presses that trigger than good for them, if not, someone is getting a bullet.

    And no, I don't think it would be hard at all for me to convince a jury that I feared not only for my own life but for the life of my child because that would be the only thing on my mind in that entire confrontation. A mild beating could easily hurt my baby not to mention the damage that blood loss, stabbing or being shot could do. Just because I don't see a weapon doesn't mean that one of them doesn't have one and is just waiting to pull it out and use it.

    Avoidance is the key. Next I'm fighting for our lives while praying to God to watch over my baby. If they get the better hand it won't be because I didn't put up a fight.

    And P.S.
    Yeah, I think I could live with hurting and unarmed person as opposed to them hurting my child.

  15. #45
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Lima, very well stated and articulated.

    Since you are a pregnant female you would certainly have more "latitude" than any knuckledragging neanderthal of the species, of which I is one.

    The key here, in your post, is that you are willing to verbalize with the offenders. I never said one needs to have an in-depth "heart to heart" with the street crud, but I do think it is necessary to be able to let them know "what you are about" before it escalates further if at all possible.

    Each situation is slightly different, your's is a good example. Sometimes I use my Command Voice and other times I talk a person in to handcuffs. It all depends.

    Not to "sidetrack" this thread, but IMHO, there are too many "Shoot Them All and Let God Sort It Out" types around.

    Biker

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