This is a discussion on What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Thumper Thats one of those scenarios we all dread and also one where "being there" is the only way to have the ...
Basically what happened to me in my younger days except it was three thugs who ambushed me and I got clocked in the back of the head.
I turned toward them and drew my little .32 revolver. They backed off enough for me to beat a hasty retreat to my nearby car and vacate the scene.
I learned two things: situational awareness and carry a bigger gun.
Have you read "In The Gravest Extreme." I dont think Massad Ayoob would agree with much of what you said. Let's see....your getting your $%& beat by the 4 guys and then, and only then, should you draw and fire your gun. Good luck with that.
Be prepared to take a dirt nap after they shoot you with your own gun.
Why bother carrying with this attitude.
Explaining the deadly force decision: "self defense in a nutshell." - part 10 - Lethal Force - Column | Shooting Industry | Find Articles at BNET.com
"An armed society is a polite society"
I don't have the mad typing skills of all of you, but if 4 guys keep coming after I told them to back off it's time to level the field !! I carry 13 friends with me at all times and would introduce them rather loudly
Then I will deal with the fallout!! Judged by 12 or carried by 6
GUN CONTROL= I WANT TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL OF THE GUN
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Well, I won't try to chastise the theoretical person who walked around in condition white in an area where four predators hang out, but......
Once inside that encirclement we know the predators are not going to bum a cigarette or a dollar. We hear about what they are thinking about every day on the 11 o'clock news. I'd want to decide quickly, before they have time to eyeball-communicate to each other who's going to administer the first blow, which of them is the smallest in stature and move immediately through him with whatever force is necessary to get outside the circle while my hand is on my gun. Once outside the circle, I'd move to a position where I could keep them all in sight and draw my gun. If any of them move in my direction its time to put the front sight on the middle of his chest. If he attempts to draw a weapon, or advances in a threatening manner, its time to stop him. I would not be using any verbal persuasions, the predators would know exactly what I had in mind, and its not likely that any bystanders in that area would be offering any testimony in my favor anyway. From past reports, its likely that the other three will decide they don't want a cigarette or a dollar after all and leave me alone.
I've never said I was going to let them beat me, nor that I wouldn't resist in a lethal force encounter.
What I am suggesting and recommending is, make sure that you try every available option before you go to "The Dark Place." Trust me, when you use lethal force it gets very dark in terms of your legal survival. You had better be right 100% because there aren't any "Do Overs" like in third grade.
What I see is a bunch of "Armchair Warriors" that wish they could do something and have nothing better to do than think of how they think things should be. I live in the real world and accept the fact that there are people out there that mean me and my family harm. I also realize that when they die as a result of their actions that they go from being "Joe Scumbag" to being somebody's misguided and wayward son, husband, brother or father.
Some of you are smart enough to understand what I'm trying to say. Others of you are too dumb to pour urine out of a boot. Ask yourself which you are.
I'm gone from this thread.
BikerRN: I think I know where you are coming from. At first glance, sometimes it look like you are saying one thing when in fact you are just saying that anyone can get involved in a shootout, but the thing to do is at least TRY not to, whereas some on the forums seem like they would welcome a shootout as a way to take out some bad guys. So I do see just where you are coming from and you are right insofar as you always advocate lethal force as a very last resort.
I think we should use firearms to defend ourselves only if and when it is absolutely necessary to protect life, ours or someone else's.
Surrounded and outnumbered, Marine Col Lewis Puller: "Good! We finally got 'em where we want 'em!" (Korea, 1950)
Right is Wrong and Wrong is Right.
Socrates : "Knowledge is knowing that we know nothing".
I am now surrounded by 4 guys who have no intention on letting me go and are menacing me after I have told them to back off. If you choose to draw...
You are not brandishing!
You are in fact in the process of using a firearm to defend your life when you reasonably fear that you are in immediate and otherwise unavoidable fear of death or crippling injury from a gang of 3 or 4 thugs who have already placed you in jeopardy with menacing threats of intimidation who also possess the ability (force of numbers) and have the opportunity (by surrounding you and preventing you an avenue of escape)!
Whether or not you are forced to pull the trigger is yet to be determined, but you are no less actively using your firearm to defend yourself and that is not the same as brandishing.
What you have failed to do in your scenario is fully understand the concepts of what a lethal encounter truly is.
You also have have failed to develop the proper mindset that will allow you to survive such an encounter against multiple opponents once you let it go too far.
What you have done is allowed them to place you in a deadly situation all while remaining in Condition Yellow and now you're in Condition Dead!
You failed to properly identify their "Pre-Assault" cues and behavior and transition out of Yellow and into the appropriate Condition Orange and Red before they are able to beat your brains in.
Work on learning how to recognize a danger situation before it is thrust upon you. You must know how the concepts of deadly force apply in order to recognize a justifiable lethal encounter when it exists.
You also have to develop a mindset that is not based on fear and feeble attempts to defend yourself and develop one based on power, aggression and the fact that you will survive any and all encounters with such overwhelming violence of action against all comers that the possibility of being defeated is not part of the equation.
If you experience an inner sense of fear and uncertainty of the outcome, you have already lost!
To develop the warrior mindset is easier said than done... But if you do not develop it... you will never survive an encounter of 3 or 4 against 1 whether you have a gun or not.
Remember, it is what it is!
If you fail to recognize it as a deadly threat, it could be the last thing you fail to do! Don't make semantics out of it. They are victimizing you because your condition yellow failed to show them not to mess with you, therefore they will continue to victimize you and YOU WILL BE AT THEIR MERCY! THEY will decide if you live or die at that point!
Don't be afraid to make it what it is! Remember... Homicide Victims are those who failed to recognize the danger for what it was!
For what it's worth... I agree with Biker... and I wouldn't have let it get that far in the first place.... but as your scenario spelled out... they already had you and were not going to let you out of their grips so to speak, except on THEIR terms.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
Yup, a person should not have allowed themselves to be put into this position, but there are times when it can happen, that would be the difference in living in complete fear constantly, and weighing the risks while going about your business.
A sample of this would be any large parking lot where you are forced to park in the north forty (movie, shopping center, work, any event...), and when you leave, it is dark and the lot is empty past the north 20 except for a few sporadic vehicles.
You could be walking to your vehicle and the 4 persons come out of one of the parked cars about the time you are within 10 feet. No warning, no reason to expect it, now you are in it. Wrong place at the wrong time.
You can jump to "Orange" and veer off while watching them sideways, indicating you are scared and a possible target. You can maintain your path, deny their request for a smoke or $$$, and they are either just asking or you have been marked as their target.
NOTE - The leader is not always the one to be feared. In my patch wearing days, we had enforcers and they were the ones in your blind spot (READ - 70* to either side or behind you. The "leader" is doing the talking and and keeping your attention focused on him.
If they have not gone about their business after you have denied money or smokes, it is academic, you are their target, to what end, only they know. Now is not the time for bantering. A command of "I said no, now BACK OFF" the ball is in their court now, and they are most likely going to respond with "Or what?" I'd either repeat the command louder and only once or keep quiet, and you had better be in the process of keeping all of them in view and a flinch from drawing whatever defensive measures you plan on using. They are going to do every thing they can to provoke you into making the first move until they have you either cornered or surrounded.
For a male, 2 on one is disparity of force weapons or not. 4 on 1, there is no doubt. That however is radically different than what is going to happen in court if it goes that far and you are untouched. Hopefully your lawyer will be able to articulate to the courtroom that as a CC holder, you are a law abiding citizen, and statistically are not only not looking for trouble but doing every thing you can to avoid it.
It is a rare day when a sole individual attacks 4 persons fresh from church choir practice. It is not rare for a single individual to be attacked by four persons in an isolated area.
If you should happen to get to the point of drawing your weapon, whatever the outcome, you had better be the first to call 911 and get that ball rolling.
The first order of business for an attacker whose plan was thwarted by a "Not so much of a sheep" will be to call 911 to whine that "Some nut job just pulled a gun on me (and my buddies)..."
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
While being totally irrelivent when the incident happens, something you can do beforehand is look at the areas you normally park at work and your favorite stores. Look where the camera's are pointing and try to park in those areas. When it happens this means nothing (no camera has ever stopped anything), but after your call to 911 and before your call to your lawyer, note where the cameras are. Let your lawyer collect the tapes and inform the police of their existence. "We were just coming back from church." doesn't work if they are surrounding you while you are visibly trying to clear the area. Cameras can be your friend after the fact.
Colt 1911 New Agent, CTLaser
You do not work for them, they work for you.
the best way to handle that situation is to first avoid getting surrounded. Second, pick out the leader (usually the one who is talking the most) and put your gun right in his face. tell him that no matter what happens, he dies first, no exception. His buddies may kill me in the ensuing struggle, but I will have company when I meet my maker.
Sounds very Wyatt Earpish, but it does work. I used the tactic 2 years ago when my daughter got "roofied" at a frat party and her friends were cornered in their car by about 8 of the frat guys. One of her friends had enough sense to call me on her cell phone, as I was about 10 minutes away. I responded by showing up with Mr. 12 gauge; all I had to do was rack that slide once on the 870 and tell the ringleader exactly what i advised above and the crowd parted like the red sea. The police got called as soon as the girls were safe, and some of those boys are still in TDC for having a whole bunch of controlled substances in their frat house.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
Has anyone considered running away as a response to this situation?
4 on 1 odds? Running is a very valid option.
I hate running. I hate running with a passion I doubt anyone here could imagine.
I have a bad knee from a car accident. I do not like to stress it...none the less, I practice running so that in a situation as described above, I can get out of a 4 on 1 ambush at least so that I can get some distance from the ambush's "X" and have them come after me so I can do what I need to do from a better tactical position...
And just about anything is better than staying on the "X" of an ambush.
Now, that doesn't mean running away is not without it's aggressive component...
When you take off, should you start running off with the aggression of an offensive lineman going after a QB...and the one in your way has his head bouncing off a car or the ground...well.
Think of it as more breaking an ambush than running away.
I had an experience like this while fishing. We were about to be robbed by a gang of young thugs and they had hit my friend in the head with a rock. I was lucky and was able to retrieve my gun from the truck. A show of force worked this time. They decided to leave. Thank God I didn't have to shoot.
Ok. I am the new guy, but here is my response. This might sound crazy but this is the way my mind thinks.
First I would tell them that I needed to call my mommy and tell her I was in trouble(if they were just drunk they might laugh). Then I would call 911(with my left hand, to protect my chin and keep my gun hand free). Then I would tell 911 where I was(because I always pay attention to cross streets) and that I threatened by four attackers, who were all around me, so send an ambulance(this lets the attackers know that I am going to make them pay for this one). Then I would tell the attackers to back off and leave me alone in a calm but serious voice(that is recorded on the 911 phone call). Most likely that would ended it and I would not even need to let them know that I am carrying. If they fight, and I doubt they would at that point, I would "Rock out with my Glock out". Help is on the way and the whole incident is recorded and shows that I was not the aggressor.
I have to be honest, I most likely wouldn't shoot in that situation. Because I doubt I would feel in fear for my life. All though I would still do the bit about mommy, call the police and tell them to leave.
But keep in mind that I am 28 years old, two hundred pounds, six foot two, lift weights and have a lot of martial arts training and practical use. If I was a sixty five years old, five foot two, one hundred and forty pounds, with a bad knee, I might see things differently. I am not saying that I wouldn't shoot at some point or that I could definitely take on all four, I'm just saying that it would take more than a threat for me to be in fear for my life.
Some of you guys are so scared of legal problems, that there's almost no point of having a CCW. Seriously.