What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults.

This is a discussion on What would you do?--Approached by 3-4 young adults. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TENWHEELER Here is what I am certain I would do if such a scenario happened to me.....I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD ...

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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by TENWHEELER View Post
    Here is what I am certain I would do if such a scenario happened to me.....I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD DO!
    TENWHEELER... The last thing you want to be saying if you carry a gun in public is I Don't Know What I Would Do if suddenly thrust in the midst of a potentially deadly scenario. That is a recipe for Disaster!

    What I don't know, is your level of training, competency, or knowledge of tactics. Lots of people get a ccw permit, strap on a gun, and then go out into the world with no other thought than, "Now I have a gun, I'll be ok!" That's their right. Have a clean background, go through the minimal requisite steps to obtain the permit and you're good to go.

    You're a member of this forum... so that tells me that you want to learn and know more. Great!

    Quote Originally Posted by TENWHEELER View Post
    ...personally, I would have to be at the end of my rope before I take another human's life.

    I CCW to prevent from being harmed; I do not CCW to shoot someone down for hassling me.
    I agree, and no one in their right mind who holds a ccw permit wants to, or intends to "shoot someone down for hassling them!" However, if you fail to understand the definition of being in a lethal force situation, as well as the dynamics of all the variations in which one presents itself, could very well cost you your life.

    Carrying a gun without the resolve to use it is a very dangerous and possibly one day, will have deadly consequences for you and maybe your loved ones. And yet thousands of ccw permit holders do not have the resolve to use their weapon in time to save their life. They walk around literally in a state of denial and have a false sense of security. Of course, that is their right. We can't save everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by TENWHEELER View Post
    I feel that if I can back down and avoid the situation with the only damage being my pride, then so be it.
    Of course! As the good guys, we are obligated to only use the gun as a last resort and when warranted, but if you fail to recognize when you are in a deadly encounter, the gun is of no use.

    The law does not require that you wait until the first knife blade pierces your rib cage or bullets are flying in your direction before you can respond using lethal force!

    You must be able to know when you are in the midst of a lethal encounter and don't remain in a state of denial up to the point where you get killed.

    Of course, you want to do the very best you can, being alert and using situational awareness to avoid getting into a deadly situation in the first place. You should be able to spot trouble like a group of potential unsavory types blocking your path, far enough ahead so that you can avoid it.

    But according to the original scenario (if I remember correctly), for whatever reason, you find yourself right in the midst of a group of thugs, who have surrounded you, are hassling & challenging you, and have no intentions of letting you walk away! That was the whole purpose of the post!

    For God's Sake... Recognize it for what it is! You are there brother! The moment of truth! And how you act or fail to act, may be the last thing you ever do in your life.

    I'm not saying you have to shoot! But it's an option at that point... and one you should be able to explain quite easily why you felt you were in fear of your life, if you understand the dynamics of being in a deadly force situation.

    So many people make the fatal mistake of judging all others based on concept of how they value morality against themselves, their friends and those they associate with. They do not understand predators and predatory behavior at all. They have no frame of reference to compare it with because they have morals and compassion which are things the predator simply does not have. They fail to know the face of the enemy and what's inside or what makes them tic. They do not have "I'm a cold blooded killer" tattooed on their foreheads! Don't expect to find one there!

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I know it cost a lot of money to attend shooting classes, training on tactics and how to shoot. But, if you want to stay out of prison, or out of the morgue, you need to get some amount of training other than what is required to obtain a ccw permit.

    It's one thing to go to the range on a regular basis and improve your shooting and gun handling skills. That is a major and necessary component and yet that costs a lot of money too.

    It's another thing to go to school and learn from professionals and learn tactics as well.

    But for a good starting point, you must learn the laws of using lethal force! You need to know what situations and scenarios constitute being in a lethal force situation and what circumstances you can use lethal force to defend yourself.

    Without a doubt, the best training in the world on the judicious use of lethal force, understanding the laws and the rules of using deadly force, comes from Massad Ayoob at The Lethal Force Institute. Interestingly enough, for those who can not afford to attend his LFI-1 course in the near future, you can learn what you need to know from his video Judicious Use of Lethal Force which you can purchase here.

    Available on VHS & DVD I promise it will be the best $35 you ever spent! A two hour lecture portion straight out of his 40 hour LFI-1 course, he goes over all the rules pertaining to using lethal force with a handgun to defend yourself. You will be amazed at the knowledge you will glean from this 2 hour video presentation. To date, there hasn't been a judge or attorney who has attended his 40 hour LFI-1 class that hasn't said they learned more in that class about lethal force then they ever learned in law school.

    Spend the $35 and get the video... It could save your life one day.


    Of course, this is just my opinion... YMMV

    Sorry for the long post! I hope it's beneficial.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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  3. #122
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    They have six to eight fists and six to eight feet all of which can kick or beat the crap out of you as well as kill you. Thatís disparity of force and a real perceived danger to life and limb. The gun comes out. If that doesnít disperse the crowd immediately and they start to move in on me the gun goes off. No law I have ever seen says you must sustain injury before your fears can be considered founded.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  4. #123
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    Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    TENWHEELER... The last thing you want to be saying if you carry a gun in public is I Don't Know What I Would Do if suddenly thrust in the midst of a potentially deadly scenario. That is a recipe for Disaster!
    Wow! What passion...Can I ask you a question? Have you ever been in this situation?

    Answer Scenario -

    1) Yes -

    Comment: Did your training take over or were there moments of indecision?

    2) No -

    Comment: Then how do you know what you will do?

    Just because someone is trained to do something does not automatically mean that everything will be perfect in the heat of the moment.

    I have never been put in the situation described in the scenario, and I hope I never am, but I train in an attempt to reduce my vulnerability in those situations.

    You never are 100% sure how you will act in any given situation until you have "walked a mile in those shoes"

    That was my whole point..

    The law does not require that you wait until the first knife blade pierces your rib cage or bullets are flying in your direction before you can respond using lethal force!

    As far as this comment goes, notice that I live in Kentucky...where until middle to late 2006 I had to retreat as far as possible before confronting an armed intruder in my own home! How does that make one feel about not being alert and finding oneself in the middle of a dangerous situation on neutral ground?

    All I am saying is that I like to consider all of the consequences and repercussions of an action before I make the action.

    I feel that I am as competent to CCW as most people on this forum but I stand by my statement that I have a plan on what I would do and I would hope that I would be able to follow through when the time comes.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; July 12th, 2008 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.
    Walk softly and carry a big stick....but I find it hard to conceal a stick.

  5. #124
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Remember the guy on the New York subway that shot four punks that were trying to take money from him? I know New York tried to prosecute him but I forget what the outcome was. If I remember right none of the punks were armed and their relatives claimed that they were all upstanding citizens. I think he may have got off but I'm not sure. If any one knows the out come please let me know.

  6. #125
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    All the punks had sharpened screwdrivers. Bernie Goetz was acquitted of most charges but was convicted of carrying a gun unlawfully.

    Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    He did prison time for that, lost a civil suit against him.

    The fine upstanding UTES who survived went on to careers serving the state. Sing Sing perhaps.

  7. #126
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    TravisSBQ,

    Bernhard Goetz is an interesting case. It's been several years since I have studied the case so I can't remember all the details, but a couple of things do come to mind.

    1) He fled the scene and did not turn himself in until at least 1 or more days later. I can't remember exactly how long it was without digging into the research of the case, but bottom line... he fled the scene. Right or wrong... It's almost universally held that Flight = Guilt and that aspect alone did not help his case much.

    2) He used Barry Slotnik, one time lawyer to John Gotti and other mobsters! While he may have been a good high profile lawyer, he is the type of lawyer that works for guilty people who know they are guilty. If one of his clients gets a 4 year sentence for something they could have gotten life without parole... in the scheme of things... he's done a pretty good job.

    Plus he was working on stuff for Gotti at the time. Now whose case do you think the lawyer is going to give the most undivided attention to?

    Goetz's lawyer was so arrogant that he refused offers of assistance from those who knew how to defend such a case and had been successful in similar cases in New York in the past.

    3) Goetz did not help his case by going on national TV for a press conference before the trial and blabbing stupid remarks about "getting even for prior wrongs" making several racial epithets and stated some other outrageous things that didn't sit well with locals.

    Again, Slotnick didn't do him any favors by steering him away from such public interviews.

    All in all Bernhard Goetz had a lot stacked against him going in and was lucky that all he got was gigged on the illegal gun charge and did 1 yr. in the joint with 5 years probation.

    To me, Bernhard Goetz was righteous in how he defended himself, but is a good example of how not to handle yourself in the immediate aftermath of the incident and making a case for hiring a lawyer used to defending the good guys instead of mobsters and crooked politicians.

    But that is only my opinion. YMMV
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #127
    Member Array TravisABQ's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with that take on the event, I'm not sure how critical fleeing was though, since it was only illegal possession of the gun for which he was convicted. I don't know if staying on the scene would have helped him at all, even if he refrained from doing a happy dance.

    All in all, Goetz did a real good impression of a guy who was just waiting for an opportunity to make a justified shooting, and got more than he was ready for.

    The jury seemed to give him a pass for shooting some punks who needed shooting, and he was lucky.

    --Travis--

  9. #128
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    TENWHEELER,

    I don't like comparing myself to others because everyone is different with different beliefs, life experiences, outlooks, training and on, and on, and on.

    But to answer your question... Yes, I have faced multiple opponents more than once in my life. None of those times I was armed with a gun but that is really immaterial. In at least one of those cases, had I possessed a gun, I would have used it without a doubt, and been justified.

    The first time, I was only 18 and had no training other than taking a summers worth of YMCA judo when I was around 7 or 8, so essentially, I considered myself untrained. However even then I possessed a mindset where I wasn't going to let two thugs mug me and steal my money and that got me through it. That incident was 2 against 1 in a mall parking lot where at least one of them was armed with a knife.

    The other occasions was after I was a certified law enforcement defense tactics, groundfighting and weapon retention instructor and also being a Marine Corps veteran.

    So in the first case, I really didn't have any training to "kick-in." In the other cases, having defensive training made all the difference in the world.

    That said, nothing matters more than having a proper mindset, and that is developed from within and cultivated.

    I only relate this because in my opinion mindset and training is what keeps you alive. You don't necessarily need to have a gun to survive against multiple opponents, but having a gun may make all the difference in the world.

    There's an old saying... Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you are armed!

    I believe that is true based on the countless numbers of good people and LEO's who have died with their guns still holstered.

    If you say I am passionate about my posts, well it's because carrying a gun and taking someones life is about as serious as serious gets. Life is cheap and someone can take it away from you in the blink of an eye. It's nothing to kid around about.

    I've never killed anyone trying to defend myself, but I've seen more death up close and personal than most people see in 20 lifetimes so forgive me if I seem too passionate in my posts.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #129
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    Travis,

    There was a lot going on with Bernie Goetz. I don't believe he was a guy "looking" for a justifiable shooting to happen but I could be mistaken. There was a lot of psychological stuff going on wrapped up in Bernie's head.

    Basically he was a mild mannered guy who had been beat down, robbed and mugged more than once in the past. He was the kind of guy who had a flashing neon sign on his back saying "rob me!"

    Finally he decided he wasn't going to lay down and be slaughtered and decided to get a gun to defend himself.

    He had tried to do it legally, applying for a gun and carry permit on more than one occasion citing having been robbed, assaulted and needing to travel the subway late at night as reasons for obtaining a permit.

    Each time he was denied and finally he said, he'd rather get one in violation of the law instead of possibly one day being killed.

    Now, I'm not a psychiatrist, but I do know human nature and interact with a lot of abused victims as part of my job. As a paramedic I have done a lot of arm chair crisis intervention including talking a couple people out of suicide.

    I believe that having the gun with him that night played a psychological effect on him and when the thugs armed with screwdrivers gave him a choice of his money or his life, after he shot the first one, his anger took over causing him to spontaneously utter "here's some for you" before he shot the guy he paralyzed. Or words to that effect along with some racial comments.

    I don't think he got on the train that night looking to shoot someone, but once the situation unfolded, his emotional weakness manifested itself in ways that made him look like a vigilante. Also the media frenzy played a role in feeding into that. I believe that even before the shooting, he was hoping that something like that wouldn't happen. (again, I could be mistaken. No one really knows for sure)

    We look at cases like that, and coupled with our training, learn to do our best to refrain from making statements like that, or say things that can hurt us in court.

    There are a lot of good people who were completely justified both morally and legally in shooting the person they killed in self defense but are now serving time for manslaughter because of how they handled themselves or what they said after the incident.

    I learned a lot from the Goetz case. It has helped a lot of people and is often used and cited in lethal force training and classes around the country.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #130
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    Good points Barkn, I quite agree.

    Goetz did some things under stress, and said things which ANYONE might say under such stress, and he got burned worse than he might have if he'd kept his pie-hole shut until he talked with his lawyer and calmed down.

    Harold Fish made similar mistakes.

  12. #131
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    Absolutely! Fish is another decent example.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #132
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    What about Joe Horn. On June 30th 08 the grand jury decided not to press charges. Have you heard the 911 tape on youtube. he was on a mission. by law he probably should of been in deep trouble but when it comes down to it they know a jury won't convict him. tell you the truth i wish he was my neighbor.

  14. #133
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    all good advice

  15. #134
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    Agreement

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    TENWHEELER,

    I don't like comparing myself to others because everyone is different with different beliefs, life experiences, outlooks, training and on, and on, and on.

    But to answer your question... Yes, I have faced multiple opponents more than once in my life. None of those times I was armed with a gun but that is really immaterial. In at least one of those cases, had I possessed a gun, I would have used it without a doubt, and been justified.

    The first time, I was only 18 and had no training other than taking a summers worth of YMCA judo when I was around 7 or 8, so essentially, I considered myself untrained. However even then I possessed a mindset where I wasn't going to let two thugs mug me and steal my money and that got me through it. That incident was 2 against 1 in a mall parking lot where at least one of them was armed with a knife.

    The other occasions was after I was a certified law enforcement defense tactics, groundfighting and weapon retention instructor and also being a Marine Corps veteran.

    So in the first case, I really didn't have any training to "kick-in." In the other cases, having defensive training made all the difference in the world.

    That said, nothing matters more than having a proper mindset, and that is developed from within and cultivated.

    I only relate this because in my opinion mindset and training is what keeps you alive. You don't necessarily need to have a gun to survive against multiple opponents, but having a gun may make all the difference in the world.

    There's an old saying... Just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you are armed!

    I believe that is true based on the countless numbers of good people and LEO's who have died with their guns still holstered.

    If you say I am passionate about my posts, well it's because carrying a gun and taking someones life is about as serious as serious gets. Life is cheap and someone can take it away from you in the blink of an eye. It's nothing to kid around about.

    I've never killed anyone trying to defend myself, but I've seen more death up close and personal than most people see in 20 lifetimes so forgive me if I seem too passionate in my posts.

    Bark'n,

    First, the passion comment was not a slam in any form. Second, I have never faced multiple odds, except the 2 on 1 schoolyard bully scenario, whether I was armed or not. I have trained as much as I possibly can via videos, training manuals, etc. but I have not had the opportunity to be trained at a specific school. I have a mindset everywhere I go about what I would do in a certain situation but I have never had to test it. That is my point in a nutshell.

    Concerning the Goetz case, one thing that my CCW instructor drilled into my head was that after the shooting is over simply say "I was scared for my life." and nothing else until you get to speak with your lawyer.

    Excellent advice, I feel, that I hope I never have to use....but am preparing otherwise.
    Walk softly and carry a big stick....but I find it hard to conceal a stick.

  16. #135
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    TENWHEELER,

    Nothing wrong with video training. I probably have close to 30 videos.

    If you haven't gotten it yet, I would highly recommend the Massad Ayoob video I recommended in an earlier post. Judicious Use of Deadly Force. I would also recommend another video of his, The Physio-Psychological Aspects of Violent Encounters. Two tapes that have the best and most reliable information on the given topic than any others I have seen.

    Stay Safe, Stay Informed!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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