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Put your hands were I can see them...

3K views 22 replies 22 participants last post by  64zebra 
#1 ·
Here is a video of two police officers making an arrest. They are arresting another police officer. Of course, he knows all the right things to say and is trying to get out of the arrest.

Ya, I know it is a movie and ya, we all know the BG is going to try something. But the question is, say you confront a BG in your home. You tell him to put his hands where you can see them and he starts these diversion tactics to get at his weapon. You know what he is trying to do, but at what point is that final warning truly a final warning? When do you shoot when he is not obeying your instructions and you suspect/know he is going for a weapon?
 

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#3 ·
You know what he is trying to do, but at what point is that final warning truly a final warning?
When he steps in the door uninvited.

Make no mistake, if he is at gunpoint and makes a move, he is trying to kill you.




Whatever you do is up to you, but I am not waitng to see a weapon. There is no point to it.
 
#4 ·
At the point where he appears, within the totality of the circumstances, to be REACHING for a weapon, with intent to kill or inflict serious bodily injury.

Deception is merely a factor in the totality of the circumstances. It is not, in and of itself, justification to use deadly force.

Two points:

In the video, the "good guy" officers go for cover once the shooting starts. Since cover was nearby, why didn't they START OUT there?

Always remember when you tell someone to do something, that you are programming yourself to EXPECT them to move in that manner. Think of this in relation to the command, "Put your hands where I can see them", or, more specifically, "Take your hands OUT OF YOUR POCKETS". What's the concern with their hands in their pockets? That they might have a weapon concealed in there, already in their hands? And, by giving that command, you are essentially giving them free passage to pull that weapon out. There may be no discernable difference, until just before the actual attack, between their visible actions when they comply with your command, and when they begin an attack.

If you're going to tell someone to take their hands out of their pockets, tell them to turn around, facing away from you, first.

....and move to a location other than where they first saw you standing before you tell them to take their hands out of their pockets.
 
#7 ·
...If you're going to tell someone to take their hands out of their pockets, tell them to turn around, facing away from you, first.

....and move to a location other than where they first saw you standing before you tell them to take their hands out of their pockets.
Gooood tip SgtMac. Seriously, I wouldn't have thought of that. I can't wait for my next (advanced) class so I can learn even more.

Did everyone notice the unsafe shooting background w/the waitress?
 
#5 ·
If you're going to tell someone to take their hands out of their pockets, tell them to turn around, facing away from you, first.

....and move to a location other than where they first saw you standing before you tell them to take their hands out of their pockets.
amen Sgt.......amen:yup:
 
#6 ·
I'm not going to have any conversations or arguments or give commands to any BG I find in my home.

If I were acting in some kind of official capacity and trying to detain someone, I would be a little less "puss-like" than the blonde guy in the clip. OC would be nice, but the guy is clearly looking around, trying to find an escape route. In other words, he isn't giving up....so, he (obviously since we saw the end) may end up getting shot.

Face down, arms out at a 45 degree angle, face away from me, cross your ankles, cross them the other way - that's basically the idea. Then you go up and start kicking a lot. This is all theoretical and only feasible if you have lots of guys with guns watching your back. Otherwise its probably best to just shoot or let them go. Try to detain someone by yourself is asking to get killed....IMO

Austin
 
#11 ·
Movies are scripted. If they don't follow the directors directions they do it over. In real life you get one chance and few people will try some movie trick. An attack is fast and violent.
 
#12 ·
Great question / example. I watched it a few times. What makes it hard is that, with editing, your sight picture alternates between perspectives. When the camera shot goes back to Snipes, his strong side hand is already out of sight as he deceptively tries to get them to focus on the hat.

So to answer the question, I'd shoot as soon as I can't see that hand. Especially if I have reason to suspect Wesley is armed.
 
#13 ·
I find BG is in my home, and if he is lucky enough that I give a warning and his hand(s) go out of sight I'm shooting with extreme prejudice to "stop the threat".
 
#14 ·
The 'warning period' ended when you decided to enter my home illegally. :yup:

Stay armed...shoot straight...stay safe!
 
#16 ·
OK we've covered the "In Home" arena, but on the street, where there have been multiple threads about that brief moment of hesitation where the BG has flashed a weapon in waistband or a knife and you draw but do not fire...Now what?

Fast paced game of chess, and if for some reason you do not fire, you lost the advantage.
 
#20 ·
IMO, if he's flashing or showing with no attempt by his hands to "go for it," that's one thing, since I don't think THAT threat would be considered imminent. (Lots of variables/circumstances of course.) But, if he makes even the SLIGHTEST furtive gesture, then it's AMF!:wave: (Adios, mother f-----!)
 
#17 ·
Have him turn away from you, get him on his knees, have him lock his fingers together behind his head and cross his ankles, call 911 and wait..........do not search the person unless you have been trained to do that.
 
#18 ·
I am afraid that he will hear my warning (the report of my weapon) just AFTER the (first) bullet hits him.

Hopefully he will lack sufficient time to (voluntarily) comply with my command to cease and desist being in my home.

But if he does manage to heed my commands (after being shot a few times) and run out of my house, I'm good with that.
 
#19 ·
But the question is, say you confront a BG in your home.
In our state, you have the right to use deadly force anytime someone enters your home in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and you reasonably believe that entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person or committing a felony...if someone is in my home that I didn't invite, they fall into one of the categories mentioned above, my wife and family mean too much to me than to try and second guess a BG.
 
#21 ·
I watched 3 seconds of the movie and immediately knew what would happen.
The BG is being portrayed by Wesley Snipes and the GG agent type (not a cop) is Ryan Phillpe (see 'Way of the Gun'), while the female I don't know who she was but clearly both agent types suck as it goes to skill and working as a team.
As well in no movie does Snipes not make it through to the end so it was a given that the two agent types would fall for the hat on the ground I'm complying trick.

IRL though Snipes would be leaking fluid the same color as his matching suit and hat. The male agent character would have emptied his magazine with maybe one hot on target though non-fatal. The no name female partner would have emptied half her magazine and dropped Snipes with roughly half of those shots fired.

- Janq
 
#22 ·
First off I would position myself differently there are non combatants in the line of fire, behind Snipes. Second at "You win" is when Snipes starts making his move. As telegraphed by his hand/body movements his tone is no longer surprised or docile as it had been. That is when I would have fired. It is where Snipes begins testing the GG. By the time Snipes says "YOU WIN" regardless of the words he is saying his tone is clearly saying your are dead punk. I have tested you and you are weak BOOM.

In my home there would be no talking. By being on my property they have already made it clear what their intent is. In fact they went by my no trespass sign that says that by proceeding they are knowingly trespassing and declaring their intent to do harm to me or mine.
 
#23 ·
wow, BG in my home....
I don't run an after hours hotel and he ain't there for tea
so, from behind cover.....if I see him no weapon in hand I'll tell him to get on the floor ONCE
if he does so or turns tail and runs out the door then I don't shoot
however if he makes any movement that makes me reasonably believe that deadly force is about to be used on me then I shoot
 
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