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Couldn't sleep last night!!

2K views 25 replies 20 participants last post by  Ragin Cajun 
#1 ·
For some reason this senario poped into my head last night and I just couldn't get past it. My brain was to busy thinking of different strategies to go to sleep, no matter how much I tried.

*Senario*
Your wife (girlfriend) and you are eating at a wendy's (or similar establishment) and just sat down. 4 early 20s men start saying inappropriate things about you, your wife. Just things to try to get you riled up, but there are threats mixed in also. You have on your person a keltec p3at right front poket, and 2 assisted open knives (this is what I plan on carrying). I am also considering carrying pepper spray.

What do you do? How do you go about leaving?

Obviously you try to avoid confrontation...

I came up with a couple ideas but shot wholes through them...

1. Pick up and leave? (They may not let you)
2. How about sending your wife out first to start up the car while you keep their attention and then bolt out on your own. (If they try to stop her Im on them. If they let her go and try to stop me then at least she is safe.)
3. Do nothing. Call 911 and tell them the situation and how I do not believe I will be able to leave safely, and wait for LE to make an appearance so that I can leave.

Solution 3 seems to be the most responsible and doesn't put anyone in danger. Is it extream? A bit wussy?

What if it were 1 man instead of 4?

I need to settle my mind a bit.
 
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#2 ·
Scenario 3, with a qualifier. I would have my wife call 911 and I would prepare to draw. Just in case they get upset that we are calling 911. I have thought about this a lot since I am in a bi-racial relationship. So far I haven't had any problems or remarks, but it is something I think about.

If I was forced to defend myself, if I used my knife at all, it would be in my left hand with my pistol in my right...
 
#3 ·
3 but my wife would call

There is nothing wussy about protecting your wife and kids.

If I am hurt or dead then I can not protect my wife and kids.
 
#4 ·
Though I'm hesitant to respond to a 'what if...?' scenario:

Take family to counter. Get store manager. Have manager call police.

If you're confident in yourself, you've got nothing to prove to anyone, so being a 'wussy' is not an issue.

Keeping you and yours safe is.

-JT
 
#5 ·
Say the LEO never show up you have to leave eventually. Worst case senario im getting the daylights beat out of me.. Lethal force (either knife of gun) would be justified right? Even if they are unarmed??

What if it were 1 man instead of 4? I think i can manage one but if he was exeptionally superior and trouncing me??
 
#6 ·
If things got crazy enough that you really did have to produce your Keltec, a 911 call ahead of any defensive action on your part might be of value to you in court as well as getting you some police help on the scene. I'd opt for idea #3 while being very prepared for the worst.
 
#7 ·
In AR "disproportional force" can be justification for using deadly force if you are in fear of severe injury. Four on one, in my mind, constitutes "disproportional force". For one on one confrontations it would be hard to justify using deadly force unless the assailant was armed and threatening. For less than deadly force a good pepper spray/Mace would be a good option.

I'm with the others on this. Calling 911 is always a good option if for no other reason than it showed you were trying to defuse a situation. We are required in AR to retreat if possible so any act showing that you were not the aggressor would be a plus in your favor if ultimately deadly force had to be employed.
 
#8 ·
My first inclination, after asking to be left alone, would be to flag down the manager and ask him/her to handle the problem.

What happens from there really depends on the thugs' response. Next step is my wife calling 911 while I monitor the threat and prepare to defend my family as necessary. OC in weak hand and prepare to draw. Forget the knives......they constitute deadly force just like the keltec, and it's a better tool for the job.

I'm not going to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but I'm not likely to allow myself to be run out of a restaurant either.....
 
#9 ·
Am I the only one to note that the OP states that you're in some sort of business? Go to the friggin' store manager/owner first.

Ugh. I hate 'what if...?' scenarios. They always devolve into, "But then what if...? And then what if...?".

1) Are you and/or the people with you in IMMINENT danger?
2) Is the threat viable? (disparity of force, ability, opportunity, etc.)
3) Is there no option of escape?

If all yes to all three, refer to your states use of force laws, and let the chips fall where they may.

-JT

Edit: Whoops...looks like others did respond to the bit about being in a restaurant as I was typing this. Good deal.
 
#10 ·
#1, #3, or have the manager deal with it. Don't talk to them at all for any reason. Being "wussy" is should not be part of the thought process. If they or he tries to stop you they have escalated the situation, not you.
 
#11 ·
Contact the manager, if he can't or won't handle the situation call the police, last resort deadly force. 4 on 1 is justification to say your feared for your safety/life. As far as looking like a wuss? When you carry it is better to look like a "wuss" and walk away with no one injured that to be "manly" and have to answer for a shooting that might have been avoided.
 
#12 ·
Most definately contact the store manager, if he/she does not have the stones to ask/force the people to leave, Immediately demand a refund, have wife call 911, and dont leave the spot, if the police do not show up for 30 minutes wait 30 minutes, when the police arrive the bad guys will have left already, if you have to defend yourself do what you need to do.
Being proactive here by getting the manager involved first puts heat on the bussiness owner to keep undesirable people out, also takes you away from having to directly confront/escalate the situation. Further it redirects the thugs attention away from you, so you can retreat if an oportunity arises. Demanding a refund may seem like a trivial act, it is not, it shows you are not pleased with the business and you feel you can not enjoy the goods/services purchased. Even when/if you get a refund by waiting for the police you put continual pressure on the bussiness to correct the problem. The manager does not want a parking lot full of police, but if he/she chooses not to act thats what they need there.

If something bad does go down after you have told the manager, and called 911, it will be much easier on you if/when you have to defend yourself legally.
 
#15 ·
I agree on the wussy comment, but I disagree on the knives comment. A knife(or knives) is another tool to help protect you. It might not be possible to draw a weapon before you are attacked and or taken to the ground. Once you are in contact distance, a knive CAN be more useful than a firearm. Off-duty, I carry (usually) a glock 21, spare mag, handcuffs and a CRKT M-16 knive. I am a LEO here in NJ. At a minimum, I carry the glock 21 and a pair of cuffs.
 
#16 ·
Give your gun to your wife, have her call 911, then knock the leader out!! That way you won't feel like a wussy. Cut the head off the snake and the snake dies. If he knocks you out at least your wife can defend herself.

Sorry meds kicking in!!:rofl:
 
#17 ·
Remember that you are not alone. As others have pointed out, store manager and employees should be on your side. Hopefully, they will do their part and ask guys to leave and call 911.

2. How about sending your wife out first to start up the car while you keep their attention and then bolt out on your own.
I think it is a poor move separate myself from a loved one in conflict. Especially if she is not armed, but even if she is armed, 2 guns are better than 1. If she walked out and 1 bad guy followed her, that leaves 3 for you and her on her own... complicates things.

My plan:

Politely ask the gentleman to leave you alone. Do it loud enough to be heard by everyone in the restaurant including managers and employees. Do it firmly, but politely. Kick wife under table to make sure she is paying attention. Depending on where you are sitting and how far away they are if going to change your response. If they are far enough away, get up and start walking out. If they really get in your face, stand up (possibly on the booth!) yell for manager/security.

Wife calling 911 is the best option. I wouldn't mess with OC or knives.

These places always have multiple fire exits so don't be afraid to use them. Walk over things if you cannot walk around them. Assuming they continue to taunt you, back yourself and wife up toward exit or cash registers. If their comments turn violent (i.e. "we are going to beat your face in") draw on them. Continue to exit. Keep your eyes on their hands. If they draw a weapon or lunge forward, shoot!

Unfortunately, a CCW is no guarantee that you will not be a victim or that you will be able to respond to every situation. All it does it give you better tools at handling it if one comes up.

Try not to live in fear. If you must put yourself at ease, face the door, sit near exits, get your wife to carry, use the drive through late at night, move to a better neighborhood, or just stay home with an AR in your lap and a dog at your feet.

:smile:
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the replies guys. Calling the cops seemed like the way to gobut telling the manager never occured to me.. I don't think any of this is pointless. I think if you go over senarios in your head enough hopefully thats how they will go down.
 
#21 ·
I keep meaning to get more experience in reading situations and moving my feet quickly with bad guys approaching you. It is good to talk about it, but even better to get some buddies together and run scenarios. Gives you a chance to judge how close "too close" actually is. A lot of people tend to freeze (deer in headlights) in tense situations and that can be bad.

The consensus is 21 feet is the distance that someone can run in the time it takes to draw your weapon. It is more complicated indoors and less-then-perfect situations, but good estimate none the less.

Train your feet to move so you have ample space, positional advantage, and clear exits.
 
#19 ·
Agree with get manager first.

Each state is different as to when lethal force is OK.

If things start to go down, I would also suggest trying to get on camera if you are able to (near the counter of the store) so you will have video backup of what happened. Obviously, this may not be able to happen if it gets really bad, just something else to think about.
 
#23 ·
BAH!, Get up and walk away, not mall ninja style with your back to the door and your hand on your weapon.
Just get up and walk away, sticks and stones and all that stuff. I don't need my gun to prove how macho I am, quite the opposite in this scenario, just walk away knowing that you CAN take care of business if they decide to push it.:rolleyes:
 
#24 ·
Always best to "attack on your enemies preparation to attack". In this case, I'd change it to "remove myself from the situation on their preparation to attack". Meaning, if a bunch of guys come in and I get the vibe that trouble is brewing - especially if I have someone with me who I am going to be wanting to protect - I'd change my seat or just leave immediately. Even if I had just sat down. If a 'bodyguard' has to physically defend his charge, he has already screwed up and is in damage control mode. Awareness and avoidance.

Alternately, let's say these guys come in and everything seems fine and then it starts up unexpectedly or I get caught off guard. I try to verbally defuse the situation along with non-threatening body language (hands up in front "fence") and make sure any witnesses nearby see and hear me trying to avoid trouble. My wife and I are also trying to move away from the threat. If they try and stop us from leaving, how are they doing that? If they have gone physical in order to do so, then I have just cause (and hopefully witnesses) to defend my wife and myself accordingly. This defense may or may not include use of my firearm depending on the many other variables in the situation - but if several (or all 4) guys are in the mix and I have legitimately but unsuccessfully tried to defuse, then it would appear we are certainly in fear of serious bodily harm...
 
#25 ·
if mutiple scumbags.....
if no viable threat has appeared (as in weapon or blocking your walkway), I'd tell the family that we're going to take it home/eat on the road/etc, pick up tray and head to counter to get it sacked to take out the door, tell mgr whats going on

now if they get up to block my path then its time to escalate things, wife call 911, me hand on my weapon, they've already committed a crime by not letting me go, if the wife getting on the phone brings on a weapon or physical contact then I'm clearing leather (or kydex lol)
3 or 4 guys holding me against my will making physical contact with me or a family member is gonna get somebody shot (wife might beat me to it LOL)

bottom line, we can take our cheeseburgers elsewhere to eat, I could care less what they think of my manhood
 
#26 ·
#3 But I would have the wife calling while I prepare for the worst. Anytime there is a pack of scum, they are no different then a pack of wolfs or pack of dogs. If anyone of them was by themself, they wouldn't have the nads to say a word. In a pack, they feel safe. 1 against 4, all it would take is for one to make the wrong move...
 
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