Couldn't sleep last night!!

This is a discussion on Couldn't sleep last night!! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For some reason this senario poped into my head last night and I just couldn't get past it. My brain was to busy thinking of ...

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Thread: Couldn't sleep last night!!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array fernset's Avatar
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    Couldn't sleep last night!!

    For some reason this senario poped into my head last night and I just couldn't get past it. My brain was to busy thinking of different strategies to go to sleep, no matter how much I tried.

    *Senario*
    Your wife (girlfriend) and you are eating at a wendy's (or similar establishment) and just sat down. 4 early 20s men start saying inappropriate things about you, your wife. Just things to try to get you riled up, but there are threats mixed in also. You have on your person a keltec p3at right front poket, and 2 assisted open knives (this is what I plan on carrying). I am also considering carrying pepper spray.

    What do you do? How do you go about leaving?

    Obviously you try to avoid confrontation...

    I came up with a couple ideas but shot wholes through them...

    1. Pick up and leave? (They may not let you)
    2. How about sending your wife out first to start up the car while you keep their attention and then bolt out on your own. (If they try to stop her Im on them. If they let her go and try to stop me then at least she is safe.)
    3. Do nothing. Call 911 and tell them the situation and how I do not believe I will be able to leave safely, and wait for LE to make an appearance so that I can leave.

    Solution 3 seems to be the most responsible and doesn't put anyone in danger. Is it extream? A bit wussy?

    What if it were 1 man instead of 4?

    I need to settle my mind a bit.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Scenario 3, with a qualifier. I would have my wife call 911 and I would prepare to draw. Just in case they get upset that we are calling 911. I have thought about this a lot since I am in a bi-racial relationship. So far I haven't had any problems or remarks, but it is something I think about.

    If I was forced to defend myself, if I used my knife at all, it would be in my left hand with my pistol in my right...
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  4. #3
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    3 but my wife would call

    There is nothing wussy about protecting your wife and kids.

    If I am hurt or dead then I can not protect my wife and kids.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Though I'm hesitant to respond to a 'what if...?' scenario:

    Take family to counter. Get store manager. Have manager call police.

    If you're confident in yourself, you've got nothing to prove to anyone, so being a 'wussy' is not an issue.

    Keeping you and yours safe is.

    -JT

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array fernset's Avatar
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    Say the LEO never show up you have to leave eventually. Worst case senario im getting the daylights beat out of me.. Lethal force (either knife of gun) would be justified right? Even if they are unarmed??

    What if it were 1 man instead of 4? I think i can manage one but if he was exeptionally superior and trouncing me??

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    If things got crazy enough that you really did have to produce your Keltec, a 911 call ahead of any defensive action on your part might be of value to you in court as well as getting you some police help on the scene. I'd opt for idea #3 while being very prepared for the worst.

  8. #7
    Member Array TLeath's Avatar
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    In AR "disproportional force" can be justification for using deadly force if you are in fear of severe injury. Four on one, in my mind, constitutes "disproportional force". For one on one confrontations it would be hard to justify using deadly force unless the assailant was armed and threatening. For less than deadly force a good pepper spray/Mace would be a good option.

    I'm with the others on this. Calling 911 is always a good option if for no other reason than it showed you were trying to defuse a situation. We are required in AR to retreat if possible so any act showing that you were not the aggressor would be a plus in your favor if ultimately deadly force had to be employed.
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  9. #8
    VIP Member Array David in FL's Avatar
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    My first inclination, after asking to be left alone, would be to flag down the manager and ask him/her to handle the problem.

    What happens from there really depends on the thugs' response. Next step is my wife calling 911 while I monitor the threat and prepare to defend my family as necessary. OC in weak hand and prepare to draw. Forget the knives......they constitute deadly force just like the keltec, and it's a better tool for the job.

    I'm not going to make a mountain out of a mole hill, but I'm not likely to allow myself to be run out of a restaurant either.....

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Am I the only one to note that the OP states that you're in some sort of business? Go to the friggin' store manager/owner first.

    Ugh. I hate 'what if...?' scenarios. They always devolve into, "But then what if...? And then what if...?".

    1) Are you and/or the people with you in IMMINENT danger?
    2) Is the threat viable? (disparity of force, ability, opportunity, etc.)
    3) Is there no option of escape?

    If all yes to all three, refer to your states use of force laws, and let the chips fall where they may.

    -JT

    Edit: Whoops...looks like others did respond to the bit about being in a restaurant as I was typing this. Good deal.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    #1, #3, or have the manager deal with it. Don't talk to them at all for any reason. Being "wussy" is should not be part of the thought process. If they or he tries to stop you they have escalated the situation, not you.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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  12. #11
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    Contact the manager, if he can't or won't handle the situation call the police, last resort deadly force. 4 on 1 is justification to say your feared for your safety/life. As far as looking like a wuss? When you carry it is better to look like a "wuss" and walk away with no one injured that to be "manly" and have to answer for a shooting that might have been avoided.

  13. #12
    Member Array Southtexas's Avatar
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    Most definately contact the store manager, if he/she does not have the stones to ask/force the people to leave, Immediately demand a refund, have wife call 911, and dont leave the spot, if the police do not show up for 30 minutes wait 30 minutes, when the police arrive the bad guys will have left already, if you have to defend yourself do what you need to do.
    Being proactive here by getting the manager involved first puts heat on the bussiness owner to keep undesirable people out, also takes you away from having to directly confront/escalate the situation. Further it redirects the thugs attention away from you, so you can retreat if an oportunity arises. Demanding a refund may seem like a trivial act, it is not, it shows you are not pleased with the business and you feel you can not enjoy the goods/services purchased. Even when/if you get a refund by waiting for the police you put continual pressure on the bussiness to correct the problem. The manager does not want a parking lot full of police, but if he/she chooses not to act thats what they need there.

    If something bad does go down after you have told the manager, and called 911, it will be much easier on you if/when you have to defend yourself legally.

  14. #13
    Member Array braindonor's Avatar
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    Your wussy comment, and the knives, make no sense to me.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    Ugh. I hate 'what if...?' scenarios. They always devolve into, "But then what if...? And then what if...?".

    .
    I can't agree. I think there is value in visualizing different scenarios and planning strategies for their eventualities.

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by braindonor View Post
    Your wussy comment, and the knives, make no sense to me.
    I agree on the wussy comment, but I disagree on the knives comment. A knife(or knives) is another tool to help protect you. It might not be possible to draw a weapon before you are attacked and or taken to the ground. Once you are in contact distance, a knive CAN be more useful than a firearm. Off-duty, I carry (usually) a glock 21, spare mag, handcuffs and a CRKT M-16 knive. I am a LEO here in NJ. At a minimum, I carry the glock 21 and a pair of cuffs.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

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