Simunitions FOF scenarios I have been in... - Page 2

Simunitions FOF scenarios I have been in...

This is a discussion on Simunitions FOF scenarios I have been in... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ron - I doubt at my age I'd even want to get into HTH - heck, my body has enough hurt anyways - without adding ...

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Thread: Simunitions FOF scenarios I have been in...

  1. #16
    Assistant Administrator
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    Ron - I doubt at my age I'd even want to get into HTH - heck, my body has enough hurt anyways - without adding more
    Chris - P95
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  2. #17
    Lead Moderator Array Tangle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry
    Ron - I doubt at my age I'd even want to get into HTH - heck, my body has enough hurt anyways - without adding more
    Ahhh, you posted before I could edit my post.

    As you can see from my post just above yours, HTH isn't allowed. It's just too risky.

    But, I wouldn't want to get into HTH either. Getting shot with wax pellets that break the skin and bleed is humbling enough. Getting beat up on top of that is more than I want.

    A young friend that I encouraged to go to Gunsite with me last summer - we were in different classes, asked me how I was doing one day after class. My reply was, "I'm hot, dirty, and hungry. I've been embarassed, humiliated, and shot dead twice. I'm carrying a loaded gun so don't bother me." He knew what I meant, and took it lightheartedly as it was intended.

    What had happened that day though was my own doing: in two drills I couldn't hit the ground - that was very frustrating. In another drill that involved a very short run, I stopped too quickly and fell on my face with a loaded revolver. Then in a couple of simulators, if its true that you learn from dumb mistakes, I really learned a lot!

  3. #18
    Member Array grnzbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe/OH
    Sounds neat. We have recently been using airsoft pistols to 'train' and I do admit, it sometimes turns into a game. But we try to take it seriously for the training part. Disarming drills from surrender is especially educational as well as having a guy attack with a knife from 21 feet and trying to respond. The Simunitions sounds like it would make the encounter much more real as opposed to holding a cheap plastic gun.
    My $250 Wilson clone is hardly "cheap", and while it doesn't have the recoil or weight of a 1911, the lessons being learned in FOF don't depend on the weight and recoil. (There's a high level IPSC shooter from Japan who practices with airsoft and then comes here and borrows a real steal gun and does well enough).

    The lessons learned doing a Teuller drill from concealment have nothing to do with accuracy and everything to do with tactics. Then when you start the Teuller drill from 3 yards instead of 7 (would you still be able to call it a Teuller drill?) weight and recoile don't even enter the equation.

    Game playing doesn't become a problem if you do it as a training exercise. For example, if you are doing disarms and you get shot, you know you got shot. There's no reason to argue about it. You need more practice. If you deny that you got shot during the disarm and don't practice, you'll get shot if you ever have to do it for real. It all depends on your mindset in doing it. (There is a problem if you wear loose clothing. I was wearing an oversized "hoodie" and didn't feel any chest shots when I was in a shooting position because the pellets expended all their energy just moving the cloth around. Wear something tight, even if it is heavy; when I was shooting one handed at something behind me to my strong (right) side, I definitely felt the pellets coming in from the guy on my left.)

    FOF can create a sense of urgency that I think would be hard to duplicate at even a serious money match. "Ok, Rob Letham beat me at this match" isn't quite the same as, "If this were real, I'd be dead now" (That'll teach you not to run straight away from a guy with a gun)
    Last edited by grnzbra; September 20th, 2005 at 03:20 PM. Reason: afterthought
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Read scenarios # 3,5,6 - good training.

    I've been saving some money to go to a Simunitions training in Georgia around December, has anyone else done Simunitions on their own dime (personal defense scenarios, not LEO/military oriented)?

    Link to Simunitions training I'm planning to attend - if I can scrounge up close to $500 (airfare, hotel, meal, course fees):
    http://www.personaldefensetraining.c...arget=test.php

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    I was a role-player with a law enforcement agency when I lived in DC. We did a LOT of FOF Simunitions training. Obviously, I can't talk about the scenarios, but the stuff that Tangle posted seems to be a pretty good cross-seciton of what you should be looking for from a civvie's POV. What I did was much more violent and tactical than a civilian is likely to face. HOWEVER - any kind of Simunitions FOF training will be completely invaluable.

    -I just looked at your link and PDT SOUNDS pretty good. I don't know about the brief/debriefs, though. If those pictures accurately reflect where it will be done... Hell yeah.
    The Gunsite Blog
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    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  6. #21
    Member Array Glock2123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cagueits View Post
    Read scenarios # 3,5,6 - good training.

    I've been saving some money to go to a Simunitions training in Georgia around December, has anyone else done Simunitions on their own dime (personal defense scenarios, not LEO/military oriented)?

    Link to Simunitions training I'm planning to attend - if I can scrounge up close to $500 (airfare, hotel, meal, course fees):
    http://www.personaldefensetraining.c...arget=test.php


    why isn't the videos working on the website you gave ? or is it just my computer

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    Glock - if you are talking about the videos on the link below, they seem to work fine - you do need to have a RealPlayer instead of Windows MediaPlayer. Link to videos in question:

    http://www.personaldefensetraining.c...rget=video.php

  8. #23
    Member Array David Blinder's Avatar
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    Cagueits,

    Thanks for mentioning my site and for your interest in attending the course. Hope you can work out the details.

    For safety, I hope everyone will resist referring to this type of training as "Simunitions" or "Sims" as that is a brand name, not a method of training. Simunitions makes a variety of training rounds and some can be lethal. Most instructors involved in this area refer to it as NLTA or non-lethal training ammunition as we don't want people to hear "sims" and think it's safe. For that matter, without proper safety precautions, NLTA is quite dangerous and without rigid safety protocols in place, the training itself can be a disaster. In my program, there is a four part safety check that includes searching yourself, another attendee searches, a staff safety officer searches and everyone is then wanded with a metal detector. The area is totally controlled and is cleared of any implements that would cause safety issues.

    Realistic force-on-force training is about as good as it gets because it teaches you to think. Properly constructed scenarios and experienced role players will allow participants to develop a "tactical database" they can draw from in times of genuine confrontations. The flip side is that improperly conducted, it can be dangerous and non-productive. All of my scenarios are based upon real life events and there are specific learning objectives to ensure that students leave with more and better skills than they came with.

    Sixbravo mentioned being unsure about the debrief but I wasn't sure if he was questioning the need in general or mine specifically. I can only say that a quality debrief is essential. I have yet to see a student recall all activities (theirs or others) accurately and having a roleplayer point out their body language, tone of voice,etc. is invaluable. More is learning in the after action review than in the event itself. Watching the scenario on video is eye opening as well and it's amazing to see details that nobody noticed.

    Sorry about the length of this post but since cagueits thought it relevant to mention my program, I figured it worthwhile to explain the thought process more fully. If anyone has any questions, feel free to pm or email me at david@personaldefensetraining.com

  9. #24
    Member Array Glock2123's Avatar
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    yep that would be the problem i dont have real player but i will download it shortly thanks

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array cagueits's Avatar
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    David - guilty of making that mistake, again. Simunitions is the brand that encompasses the following ammo:

    Non/Less Lethal:
    Securi Blanks (blanks),
    FX (paint marking - the one often mistakenly refered by most as Simunitions),

    Lethal:
    CQT (for practice w/ modified weapon),
    Green Shield (frangible, no weapon modification required),
    Short Stop (less powered ammo on unmodified weapons, projectile doesn't fly that far once fired - i.e. 100mts vs 1000mts).

    I have read of one incident were a LEO picked up a box of "Simunitions" thinking all ammo was the same, loaded up and shot another LEO by mistake - very important to make sure you use FX type ammo and no other when using Simunitions in role-playing scenarios.

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Blinder View Post
    Sixbravo mentioned being unsure about the debrief but I wasn't sure if he was questioning the need in general or mine specifically. I can only say that a quality debrief is essential. I have yet to see a student recall all activities (theirs or others) accurately and having a roleplayer point out their body language, tone of voice,etc. is invaluable. More is learning in the after action review than in the event itself. Watching the scenario on video is eye opening as well and it's amazing to see details that nobody noticed.
    No, sir. I was just curious about the quality and extensiveness of the debrief. Working with LEO's on this, I know a debrief is absolutely essential. In one of the scenarios I participated in, we used a police cruiser and I had always wanted to know how the videos would have turned out if there had been a camera in it. As well, we never got to participate in the debrief because of the cirriculum and legalities involved. I would have loved to, but we were not allowed to say anything other than our lines for a lot of reasons. I'll suffice to say that I am pleased to hear you give full-spectrum feedback on your training!!!!

    Of all the scenarios I got to participate in, though, playing the bad guy was always the BEST!!!! Gives you a pretty wild insight, especially if you get into the role. As I have said many times before.... this stuff that I did is the reason I carry three mags.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

  12. #27
    Member Array David Blinder's Avatar
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    SixBravo,

    Thanks for clearing that up. As to your experience, I can say that if the participants were deprived of getting feedback from roleplayers, they didn't get the full benefit. As a participant, how valuable would it be to know that your specific actions (for example, blading off, appeared tentative, seemed flustered) were noted by an RP and escalated the situation, persuaded him that you were better left alone,etc.? This is a reason why having experienced RP's is critical. All my scenarios are designed to have multiple outcomes, depending on the actions of the participant. The RP's know that if X occurs, they do Y but if Z happens, they do yet another thing. It takes a massive amount of work to script them properly so that all possible responses are addressed and that all lead to productive learning. This could mean that a mistake leads to bigger problems but it also means that properly handled, it should lead to resolution of a problem (kinda like real life). At least in my program, there are no definitive answers as depending upon skills and desired outcome, there may be many ways of handling things. What I like to do is provide a venue that people can truly test themselves and determine what works or doesn't and why. We provide feedback and suggestions but it's up to the participant to solve the problem since nobody else is going to be there to provide correction if it happens for real. There are ramifications for all actions, both good and bad and "The test" was designed to allow people to see how they perform in a dynamic stressful environment. They may/may not like the answer but nobody leaves without valuable information about their performance.

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Our inability to give feedback was a function of the lawyers involved. I'll sum it up by saying it was federal level. At that point, I think we can all guess that the lawyers get a bit antsy about a role player (who has a background that may have NOTHING to do with legalities or tactics) spouting advice.

    We had similar lines, though. "If trainee A does X, then 1." It was a bit like relearning algebra. haha We had certain ones where there was no time to evaluate - just react. Other ones would take 10-15 minutes to develop. Even time-length variations on certain scenarios. I had to memorize about 10 pages of lines before I could even start. It wasn't easy, by any means. But if you can evaluate situations correctly and have experienced role players (like you have), then the situations can build incredibly fast.

    Another big thing I took away from working there: wear a cup for soap ammo.
    The Gunsite Blog
    ITFT / Quick Kill Review
    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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