What if the BG tries to leave nicely? - Page 2

What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

This is a discussion on What if the BG tries to leave nicely? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Many of the posts have changed the facts of the hypo posed in the thread to justify the use of deadly force. However, if we ...

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Thread: What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

  1. #16
    Ron
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    Many of the posts have changed the facts of the hypo posed in the thread to justify the use of deadly force. However, if we accept the facts, as stated, I believe that it is a no brainer that the use of deadly force would not be justified because there was no reasonable fear of death or serious injury from the intruder. Yes, a very difficult situation, he knows where you live, have guns in your house, etc. but I know of no state that would call the shooting in this case justified.

    Ron
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Many of the posts have changed the facts of the hypo posed in the thread to justify the use of deadly force. However, if we accept the facts, as stated, I believe that it is a no brainer that the use of deadly force would not be justified because there was no reasonable fear of death or serious injury from the intruder. Yes, a very difficult situation, he knows where you live, have guns in your house, etc. but I know of no state that would call the shooting in this case justified.

    Ron

    If he is in my home illegally, he is a threat. Like I said in my previous post, he would have to walk past my children to get through the door, and I am not letting that happen under any circumstances.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by crankshop1000 View Post
    If you decide to shoot, you had better kill the BG or the lawsuit would break you.
    Depends on how your state's Castle Doctrine is written.

    Here in Florida, there is a bar to civil recovery for the BG or his family if he gets hurt in the course of you defending yourself.

    In fact, he has to pay your attorney fees if he brings such a case. If he has an attorney so foolish as to take such a case, that attorney is also liable for your attorney fees.

    And since prisoners don't have money, the BG also loses almost all their privileges in the jail (TV, commissary, etc).

    I Love Florida!

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Depends on how your state's Castle Doctrine is written.
    I believe some Castle Doctrines include protecting property, not just to avoid death and bodily injury
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  5. #20
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    But civil liability is a whole separate ball of wax, unless it is limited / barred in the castle doctrine statute or equivalent.

    Matt
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  6. #21
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadeye72 View Post
    If he is in my home illegally, he is a threat. Like I said in my previous post, he would have to walk past my children to get through the door, and I am not letting that happen under any circumstances.
    I fully understand your position on this. It obviously would depend upon my read of the BG at the time. If I truly felt that he was a threat, then I certainly would take the same action you would take. But, I would do everything possible, short of putting my family at risk, to avoid having to shoot him, including letting him leave my house.

    Ron
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  7. #22
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    I'd close the distance with my gun pointed at his head before he could reach a door. Whip out a stun gun and zap him a couple of times. Call the popo while he's flopping on the floor. If he tries to get up before they arrive...repeat.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLOLUCKY View Post
    The moral question is the toughest. I agree that if he approaches me it would be a bad idea and he/she would know this. I would shoot them in fear of being disarmed. If moving away from me he might just well get free ...for now.
    I could honestly see a BG more like 'bolting' for the front door than actually talking his way out the door. But either could possibly happen. BG's can be unpredictable, but I would not shoot them in the back period. I have way too much to lose to do that.

    You're right about shooting in the back here in Ohio. Without a castle Doctrine you'd be hard pressed to show self defense to an unarmed person with entry wounds in the back! Remember in OH you, as a chl permit holder, are the one on trial. You have to prove you are innocent rather than the state having to prove you guilty. Regardless of what people say that is the reality in Ohio. So press your state reps and senators to vote for the castle doctrine HB 184 and SB 284

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I fully understand your position on this. It obviously would depend upon my read of the BG at the time. If I truly felt that he was a threat, then I certainly would take the same action you would take. But, I would do everything possible, short of putting my family at risk, to avoid having to shoot him, including letting him leave my house.

    Ron
    I agree with this but letting him leave.........I don't know. What if we went next door and hurt or killed my neighbor........that would be hard for me to live with also........maybe I'll just crack his skull open....decisions, decisions or
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojave_pistolero View Post
    Is he standing on a tile floor or is he standing over an expensive rug or light colored furniture?
    One of my wife's rules: If you have to shoot him, do it on the tile!
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  11. #26
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    FL Statute 776.013(4):
    776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.--
    (4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person's dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    But, if a BG is ALREADY in your house when you get home, I don't think this section truly covers that situation.

    Oh, wait...I read a bit more. I read it from the bottom, up. Don't ask. I'm goofy like that:

    (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    So it would seem that in FL, if you walked in on a BG in your house, you can reasonably assume "that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred" and would be justified in use of deadly force.

    I must echo: I love FL

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    FL Statute 776.013(4):


    But, if a BG is ALREADY in your house when you get home, I don't think this section truly covers that situation.

    Oh, wait...I read a bit more. I read it from the bottom, up. Don't ask. I'm goofy like that:



    So it would seem that in FL, if you walked in on a BG in your house, you can reasonably assume "that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred" and would be justified in use of deadly force.

    I must echo: I love FL

    -JT
    I agree.......however, castle doctrine notwithstanding, I genuinely don't want to shoot someone. Neither do I want him walking out with his pockets crammed with our stuff though.

    So for me, it might sound something like this.....

    "STOP, don't move! Let me explain something to you......You're in my house and by law, I can kill you right now and the only thing I have to worry about is cleaning up the mess. I don't know what you've done in my home, or what you may have stolen, so you're not leaving here. We can do this one of 2 ways. a) You can get down on your belly and wait quietly for the police, or b) I can shoot you now.....in which case I'll have to listen to my wife whine about the blood on the floor. I'd prefer "a", but it's your choice......"

  13. #28
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    Under those circumstances (BG in my house), there will be very little leeway afforded. He will go face-down and splayed, compliant to the last breath, else he will be put there forcibly. If he chooses to slowly turn and exit out, say, the open door or window behind him, so be it, but those movements and actions had better not be confusing in the least. Where would I draw the line between sensing an attack versus sensing that the BG was withdrawing? It would depend on the context and circumstances.

    My home has the exit points it has. If a BG were caught inside my home, I'd be coming in via one of those entry points. It is highly unlikely that the BG would be able to exit without coming through me. Thus, unless he were to dive out a window (away from me), any movement would have to be toward me. That movement had better be made slowly and in direct response to my actions, else he's going to get forced to the ground to await the police ... via bullets if he so chooses.

    Family members in other rooms ... that changes things a bit, creating a potential hostage issue, and creating an immediacy on a different level than if it were just myself.

    Multiple BG's? Different, again. Riskier, due to increased likelihood of weapons, and a tougher problem. If I sensed multiples, and I had no family inside the house, I'd likely exit and call police, given the risk of clearing a house of an unknown multiple of people.
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  14. #29
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    Under the grounds the OP gives, I would not be justified in shooting. I will only use deadly force if I, my family or an innocent person are in "immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of serious/crippling bodily harm or death." In this particular case, that is not justified. I let him leave if he can do it without putting me in jeapordy. It's not worth the risk to me if I'm not put under the jeapordy I mentioned.
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    I wouldn't give the order to stop, and put his hands in the air in the first place. That command would make me expect his hands to move. This expectation would slow my reaction time if he does go for a weapon.

    If he kept moving after he saw me, I would shoot. If he froze instantly, I would not let him leave. At first movement of his, that wasn't by command, I would shoot. And the only command I would give is "Get Down! Face Down, Arms Out!" Then I would tell my wife to bring me the shotgun and call 911.
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