What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

This is a discussion on What if the BG tries to leave nicely? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MattLarson You've missed the other part of the legal presumptions in Florida Statute 776.013: Regardless of where you happen to shoot the ...

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Thread: What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    You've missed the other part of the legal presumptions in Florida Statute 776.013:



    Regardless of where you happen to shoot the intruder, you are presumed to have been in reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm.

    While I never, ever advocate shooting someone who is retreating and isn't a threat, the statute appears to consider such an action reasonable.

    Matt
    Oh no...I didn't miss that...I quoted that bit myself. And that's the part I was addressing specifically.

    Not sure if that law has actually been applied to a self-defense shooting case yet...particularly where BG was shot in the back. Again, don't wanna be a test case.

    -JT

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  3. #62
    AMH
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    Legally? Varies by state, but if the threat was TRULY not present (hands WAY out and visible - heck, let's say the guy is nekkid), sure seems like the prosecuter could tear you apart.

    Morally? "Removing the jackal" is part of the government's job (I mean, for reals, from Scripture through the Constitution: that's what governments are supposed to do). I can participate if I'm the warden throwing the switch, the cop in the gunfight, or the citizen under threat under our laws... which make me part of the 'system' rather than acting on my own.

    If it's at night, you can't see whether the fellow is a threat or not: shooting him would be legitimate. In the daylight, you CAN tell if there is an ongoing threat, and shooting in the absence of such a threat would be wrong. Not to say I wouldn't want to, and certainly I could imagine doing so if I thought there was a threat! But the OP set it up as a no-threat-now situation, and I cannot shoot without liability (in this world and the next).



    The verse says, "the thief", so this is discussing a true "here-to-take-stuff" guy rather than "here-to-rape-torture-and-murder" guy. But contrasting night vs. day indicates that the guilt is tied to the homeowner's ability to identify the threat here: in bad light, one can't know if the fellow is a merely a thief or is truly a rapist/murderer, so the use of lethal force is warranted. And the issue of self-defense is assumed; the discussion is on the extent of it vis-a-vis the threat.

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Note: regarding the fellow returning - landmines!
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  4. #63
    Senior Member Array bobcat35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reborn View Post
    Or maybe over some plastic that I had spread out for painting.
    brings new meaning to the term "drop cloth"
    "Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."
    -Winston Churchill
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  5. #64
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    Problem #1: If the BG in question crosses the physical barrier (any of my doors or windows) in any fashion (opening forcefully, picking locks, or breaking) we are not talking. I will say absolutely nothing to the BG in question. The last sound he hears before reporting for judgement at St. Peters' gate will be the sound of the gun blast that sends the defective merchandise in question back to the factory....

    Problem #2: As per what I have described in problem 1, how is BG in question going to try and "leave"?

    Oooops, I forgot, fellas. I live here in the great state of Texas where we don't have to worry about whether the BG has enough of an advantage or not.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  6. #65
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    You've missed the other part of the legal presumptions in Florida Statute 776.013:



    Regardless of where you happen to shoot the intruder, you are presumed to have been in reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm.

    While I never, ever advocate shooting someone who is retreating and isn't a threat, the statute appears to consider such an action reasonable.

    Matt
    Not to belabor this issue, but the statute simply creates a "presumption," which means that the prosecutor has the burden of proving otherwise. And, IMO if you shoot the intruder in the back as he is leaving you might well be in big trouble, even in Florida, depending upon the predelicition of the prosecutor and report of the investigating LEO.

    Ron
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

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  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Stop? Hands up? On the ground?

    How about BANG BANG BANG... drop the weapon. Shouldn't have been in my house in the first place
    +1 Thats what I was thinking. If I ever find a criminal in my home there will be no warning, no commands, and no time outs. I would consider his being there a threat, and that I would be in a fight for my life. I was taught to avoid fights, but if one was unavoidable hit first and hit hard. Don't stand around talking about it, just get it done.
    Two roads diverged in a wood, and Ió
    I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference.

  8. #67
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    What if the BG tries to leave nicely?
    Call him a cab----the cab company with blue lights on top?

  9. #68
    GPS
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    Questions abound - You walk in and find a BG in the house and he just wants to make nice and slowly leave - How do you know he is the only one in there? Is he trying to signal an accomplice for help? What has he stuffed in his pockets and is trying to make off with? And, as someone showed us earlier, what game is he now playing? Is he truely just going to call time out and leave? Why is it in so many instances that the good guy has to play by a set of rules that protects the bad guy and we get hosed no matter what?
    Cordially,
    GPS

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  10. #69
    Senior Member Array SilenceDoGood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GPS View Post
    Why is it in so many instances that the good guy has to play by a set of rules that protects the bad guy and we get hosed no matter what?
    Just as the BG's will inherently not follow the rules (i.e. carry a gun in a gunfree zone, rob/murder/rape/pillage) we (the GG's-good guys- law abiding citizens) are bound by law and morality, so we inherently have to play by the rules.
    Last edited by SilenceDoGood; March 15th, 2008 at 11:31 PM. Reason: spelling
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  11. #70
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    This was just on the nightly news a few minutes ago:
    News - ABC4.com

    A man and a woman were in bed asleep in their apartment, guy breaks in through the deadbolt, goes to the bedroom, jumps on the woman and starts to fondle her, the guy in bed reaches for his gun...and waits, then shoots the guy...once! The the perp climbs off the woman, and starts to walk out, the lady blocks his exit, the guy then smashes a window and jumps out...gets away across the street, then passes out! The police arrive on scene, arrest him, take him to the hospital, and now is under protective custody...is there something wrong with this scenario, where is her boyfriend when she's blocking this guy's exit??? (check out the video clip that goes with the story)

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fmr18z View Post
    This was just on the nightly news a few minutes ago:Snip
    Pretty crazy. Judging by the hole in the wall, looks like the guy was using FMJ ammo to have such a pass through. Just one shot wasn't enough and he sounded scared to pull the trigger.

    All's well that ends well though.
    Why do you own a fire extinguisher when you have the fire department to protect you?

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    In the unlikely event that I would be able to enter my house with the BG unawares (READ - hears me coming and starts his/her escape - confrontation is a non-issue, the BG is gone) here is what would happen with me given the OP scenario.

    ME: Draw weapon, aim COM while moving for suitable coverish , "HEY!" nothing more said.

    BG: Turns and is just as surprised as I am, puts hands in air, the chess game begins.

    Me: ...

    Way too many variables here. I will order the BG to kneel and keep hands up, while my weak hand is dialing 911 on my cell. Any other movement will have to be a judgment call.
    Sticks

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    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Not to belabor this issue, but the statute simply creates a "presumption," which means that the prosecutor has the burden of proving otherwise. And, IMO if you shoot the intruder in the back as he is leaving you might well be in big trouble, even in Florida, depending upon the predelicition of the prosecutor and report of the investigating LEO.

    Ron
    Indeed. I agree that this is not a blanket license to shoot anyone who breaks into your home. I was just pointing out that there is considerable weighting of the equation in favor of the homeowner.

    That said, I am still firmly of the opinion that there is never a justification to shoot someone unless they pose a genuine threat. An intruder who has suddenly come to the realization that he picked the wrong house to break into and is trying to leave isn't, IMHO, a valid target for deadly force.

    I'll be watching him over the sights as he leaves, but I'm not going to shoot him just to prevent his departure.

    Frankly, I wonder how many of the "if he's in my house, I am going to shoot him" set have ever actually seen someone shot.....

    Matt
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  15. #74
    MJK
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    Tough scenario.

    Not an imminent deadly threat (capability, proximity, intent) and I can retreat safely = let him go and call 911. But consider the following:

    1. Perhaps the BG did not initially comply because his adrenalin is dumping and he is experiencing auditory exclusion. When confronting BG at home and issuing a command to drop, I'd want to yell loud enough to increase the chance he hears my command.

    2. How do I know he doesn't present a credible threat to life or limb if I don't detect a weapon? Consider this...a practiced individual can cause serious damage with a blow of their hand to throat, nose, etc.

    Perhaps someone else can provide additional insight to these considerations.

  16. #75
    Senior Member Array Cthulhu's Avatar
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    Perhaps an example of not waiting to find out the BG's intentions:

    Man Fatally Shot In Home Invasion - Central Florida News 13

    -JT

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