What if the BG tries to leave nicely?

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Originally Posted by QKShooter

... will be able to determine if the BG hit the carpet with his arms extended up in a surrender posture.

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They'll be able to determine the BG's thoughts, as if thoughts drove his arms to be extended? And extended arms couldn't possibly be due to anything else? Prosecutors having slept at Holiday Inn Express doesn't fly with juries, either.

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State laws regarding the justified use of deadly force do vary across the country ...

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It's always good to remember that, as not all places are equally rational in their appreciation of a person's fear of loss of life, their appreciation of the immediacy and urgency of the problem faced by a clever criminal seeking to gain the upper hand, and their understanding of just how damned quickly the upper hand can turn to disaster.

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Originally Posted by MattLarson

I submit that it is a pretty easy call - the guy is trying to leave and is, in the scenario presented in the opening post, not a threat.

If he gets out the door, you're not going to shoot him as he runs down the sidewalk on the theory that he might someday hurt someone else, right?

So why would his being headed for the door and not being a threat be any different than his having gotten out the door and not being a threat?

Matt

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I agree that it is an easy call given the scenario in the opening post. We are on the same page on this. No way do I shoot an intruder who is, in fact, leaving my house as I enter. The not so easy call is where his is still in the house and says he is leaving. Then it depends upn my sense of the danger still represented by the intruder. How far apart we are, where he has to pass to get to the door, is he an obvious gangbanger type, or thug, or some kid doing something stupid, etc.

Ron

Castle Doctrine or not if you shoot the BG in the back with his hands in the air your first call and the next person you talk to better be a lawyer. Even if the BG is Charles Manson you are in trouble and if you have any witnesses you better get your story together.

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Originally Posted by FN1910

Castle Doctrine or not if you shoot the BG in the back with his hands in the air your first call and the next person you talk to better be a lawyer. Even if the BG is Charles Manson you are in trouble and if you have any witnesses you better get your story together.

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Depends on your state laws. There are states that allow use of lethal force to prevent somebody from fleeing a felony, or fleeing with property...

Whether I would or not depends on a lot of things, but I know I'm not going to hold the door open for him so he can carry out my T.V.

Yep, T.V.'s can be replaced...I agree, so can jewelery, so let's get away from that argument...How about this one?

He stole one of your guns...the one you had passed down from your grandfather's grandfather...Can that be replaced? Or your grandfathers medal of honor? Or any other sentimental item that you consider valuable, but an insurance company doesn't? How about the new glock you picked up last week? Can that be replaced? Sure, but now this home invader has a gun...

Some property is irreplacable and is worth using lethal force over. I'm glad I live in a state where its an option.

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Originally Posted by David in FL

With your wife's jewelry in his pocket?

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Sure! We can't shoot to defend property and I can't imagine any item worth shooting someone for anyway.

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Originally Posted by ruertar

Sure! We can't shoot to defend property and I can't imagine any item worth shooting someone for anyway.

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Some of us can, and some items are.

In Alaska, and I have no idea about other states, there are very specifically detailed definitions of non-deadly force and deadly force. If I draw my gun on an intruder, I better have made sure that I did so legitimately, because if my gun is pointed at an individual, it is use of deadly force.

This means that, whether I shoot or not, I am using deadly force against the BG. If he leaves and I tell the officer that the BG was in my sights, I could be arrested and sent to prison for between 10 and 25 years for use of deadly force.

That being said, since I was already using deadly force on an intruder, unless there was a compelling reason why not (it was a young child (not a thugged up gang banger) or for some reason someone was in the wrong house...) I would do what I had to in order to de-escalate the situation, i,e. pulling the trigger

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Originally Posted by Kerbouchard

Depends on your state laws. There are states that allow use of lethal force to prevent somebody from fleeing a felony, or fleeing with property...

Whether I would or not depends on a lot of things, but I know I'm not going to hold the door open for him so he can carry out my T.V.

Yep, T.V.'s can be replaced...I agree, so can jewelery, so let's get away from that argument...How about this one?

He stole one of your guns...the one you had passed down from your grandfather's grandfather...Can that be replaced? Or your grandfathers medal of honor? Or any other sentimental item that you consider valuable, but an insurance company doesn't? How about the new glock you picked up last week? Can that be replaced? Sure, but now this home invader has a gun...

Some property is irreplacable and is worth using lethal force over. I'm glad I live in a state where its an option.

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Hard to flee with a TV while holding your hands in a non-threatening manner over your head. I take it from the original post that you come in and find an intruder in your house. You don't know what he has in his pockets but you pull your gun on him and he puts his hands up as ordered. The difference is that he turns around away from you and starts walking away making no threats to you, just walking away. You may be justified legally to shoot him in the back for fleeing from a felony but you are going to have problems especially if you don't know who he is, what he was doing there or if he has stolen anything. The days of the DA patting you on the back for getting rid of a BG just because are gone.

I'll agree, the TV is a stretch...but I don't know what he has in his pockets, so if he isn't kind enough to leave a picture I.D. with his home address, I'm probably not going to let him leave.

Mississippi castle doctrine says that a citizen may shoot a fleeing felon in the back 24/7. That said, I still don't think I would shoot them in the back given the ops' original scenerio. As I said in my first response, this is where a 60. stun gun really shines. I'd close the distance on him with gun drawn in right hand and stun gun in the left. If he tries to spin on me he gets dropped. Period. If he doesn't he gets 975,000 volts slapped on him. A popular saying on this forum seems to be that if you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. The bottom line for me is that he doesn't leave once he's violated my castle. All options considered, he would just be so much better off if he simply complied to my order hit the deck face down, arms spread...NOW!!!

ccw9mm....That (for sure) is quite true.
Read up on Pennsylvania some time. :dead:
"It's always good to remember that, as not all places are equally rational in their appreciation of a person's fear of loss of life, their appreciation of the immediacy and urgency of the problem faced by a clever criminal seeking to gain the upper hand, and their understanding of just how damned quickly the upper hand can turn to disaster."

So when the BGs get word of this, if they are caught in a house, they will just raise their hands and we will all have to let them go free? So if you come home and catch a guy raping your wife and he raises his hands and heads for the door, you let him go free? So I can go into a bank and rob it and wait for the police and raise my hands and get off scot free? Or, I can go into a grocery store and steal something and if I can raise my hands, I get off scot free? Or go into a restaurant and eat half of their best steak and leave and if they say something, I can just raise my hands and walk off scot free?
When does this gutless nonsense stop?? What message are you sending to thugs? Are we all French people who will not fight and you can come and take it?? So if a murderer apologizes and raises his hands and starts walking to the door, you just let him go?
Wake up America!! If you do these things, you are giving up your rights!! Right to be secure in your own home. Right to prosper from your labors. Right to peace and tranquility. Right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!!
By taking those actions, you are emboldening criminals and they will just get bolder and more violent. Where will it end. When will you grow a backbone? When will you grow angry and realize the criminals are using your fear against you? When will you call a legislator and tell him or her to get off their lazy butt and quit passing laws that protect criminals and handicap the honest citizen that keeps our great nation thriving?
Ponder this saying in this type of situation,ONE STORY, END OF STORY!!(Gabe Suarez).

What I see here is the emasculation/castration of our country. As fellow countrymen, it is our duty to stand for each other in what is right, in each and every, single, instance! If your states laws have emasculated/castrated you, send a letter to your congressman/woman and tell them you are tired of being emasculated/castrated!! If across this nation, people start standing up for themselves and each other, we send a message to thugs and congressmen that we are not going to put up with this crap, and things will get changed!!

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Originally Posted by ccw9mm

They'll be able to determine the BG's thoughts, as if thoughts drove his arms to be extended? And extended arms couldn't possibly be due to anything else? Prosecutors having slept at Holiday Inn Express doesn't fly with juries, either.

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Ummm...Arms straight up in the air is not going to look good. DAs and juries do not need the BG thoughts if they can draw an accurate picture of the scene.

Gunshot residue (if you are close enough)

Blood spatter

Muscle position compared to wound track if COM (poke a finger in your chest and raise your other arm if you doubt that one)

Bullet trajectory - Horizontal = straight line from your muzzle to the wound (standing still or moving slowly). Slight downward = coming at you fast if in front, leaving fast if from back. 1 horizontal-ish and 8 upward, you shot him after he was down (darn malfunctions anyhow, I really should have cleaned my weapon after the last range practice).

I really do not like the idea of having a BG walk away, let alone turn his back to me while in my home. His hands go down, things are not going to be pretty.

Abuttermilk,

I think I can safely say that we all feel the way you do. Hell, our military has to play the same stupid BS game overseas. A terrorist/insurgent/otherwise BG shoots at one of them, drops the gun and turns their back to them to leave, WE CAN NOT SHOOT BACK! It is stupid, but it is the "Human Rights" activists that pulled those shackles on and the whole world is watching. The enemy knows this and uses it to their distinct advantage.

Civilians or Military, if those shackles were cut loose, you are darn right that things would change in a hurry. As soon as the word gets out that the BG security blanket has been taken away... :tumbleweed:

Come home and find BG in house? Bring out the gimp! :rofl:

dont forget emminant domain, if he's in your home he's a threat if you dont know him .