Calling 911 after drawing your firearm - Page 2

Calling 911 after drawing your firearm

This is a discussion on Calling 911 after drawing your firearm within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Self Defense, I am a little confused here. How can Arizona law allow you to use a weapon for lawful self defense but make you ...

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Thread: Calling 911 after drawing your firearm

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Self Defense, I am a little confused here. How can Arizona law allow you to use a weapon for lawful self defense but make you guilty of a felony for preparing that weapon for use? Would I still be guilty if I waited for him to turn his back on me so he didn't see my weapon and therefore would not be in fear of his life? That just doesn't make sense to me.

    As far as calling 9-1-1, do it. I worked 9-1-1 for fifteen years in the Washington D.C. suburbs. You would be amazed at how many bad guys called us. Just because someone has a record does not mean they can not be a victim also. Just because someone does not have a record (yet) does not mean they are not a criminal. I have seen hundreds of cases where the officers on the scene decided to charge everybody involved and let the judge and jury figure it out. When it comes down to your word against his it can be a coin toss.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array AZ Husker's Avatar
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    It doesn't make you guilty. I think there's some confusion of threatening or brandishing here.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  3. #18
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Clarification

    I was slightly wrong in my reading of the AZ statutes. Here is the text of the applicable statues:

    13-404. Justification; self-defense

    A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, a person is justified in threatening or using physical force against another when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

    B. The threat or use of physical force against another is not justified:

    1. In response to verbal provocation alone; or

    2. To resist an arrest that the person knows or should know is being made by a peace officer or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, whether the arrest is lawful or unlawful, unless the physical force used by the peace officer exceeds that allowed by law; or

    3. If the person provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force, unless:

    (a) The person withdraws from the encounter or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing he cannot safely withdraw from the encounter; and

    (b) The other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful physical force against the person.

    13-405. Justification; use of deadly physical force

    A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

    1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

    2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.
    This will cover some of the situations we usually discuss. So, in these cases calling would seem the correct and prudent thing to do.

    However, these incidents are not always clear cut. The man approached by BGs asking for money when one has a baseball bat would not necessarily be covered here. (It could be Derek Jeter and friends needing cab fare.)

    Here is the proposed law:

    13-421. Justification; defensive display of a firearm; definition

    A. The defensive display of a firearm by a person against another is justified when and to the extent a reasonable person would believe that physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful physical force.

    B. This section does not apply to a person who:

    1. Points the muzzle of a firearm directly at another person.

    2. Discharges a firearm in the direction of another person.

    3. Intentionally provokes another person to use or attempt to use unlawful physical force when the person possesses a firearm.

    4. Offensively displays or shows a firearm while verbally threatening another person.

    C. For the purposes of this section, "defensive display of a firearm" includes:

    1. Openly wearing, carrying or possessing a firearm.

    2. Verbally informing another person that the person possesses or has available a firearm.

    3. Holding a firearm in a position so that the firearm does not point directly at another person.
    Notice that you still cannot point your weapon at the BG, which I previously thought was covered.

    This statute justifies the aggravated assault violation here:

    13-1203. Assault; classification

    A. A person commits assault by:

    1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly causing any physical injury to another person; or

    2. Intentionally placing another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury;

    13-1204. Aggravated assault; classification; definition

    A. A person commits aggravated assault if the person commits assault as prescribed by section 13-1203 under any of the following circumstances:

    1. If the person causes serious physical injury to another.

    2. If the person uses a deadly weapon or dangerous instrument.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    I can tell you I made that mistake once, of not calling

    911 after an encounter, and Iíll never do that again.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that not all “BGs” set out to be BGs. While there are people that wake up in the morning and plan on robbing, raping or killing, some are ordinary people that have an anger management problem. Road-ragers decide to confront the guy that cut them off and give them a severe tongue-lashing or a bit of a beating. The victim fears for life and limb and pulls a gun. The road-rager, who is perceived by the victim to be a BG but otherwise has a clean record, wets himself, runs off and calls to report someone pulled a gun on him. Target1911 posted such an incident happening to him a couple months back. Check it out.

    There will be situations where good guy and bad guy appear to be night and day to you, but the LEOs need more help.
    Last edited by Stirling XD; March 17th, 2008 at 11:34 AM. Reason: grammer errors

  6. #21
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    Make it clear to everyone within earshot that you're begging him not to make you hurt him. If you've got him covered, ask the nearest person to call 911 and describe the situation and what you're wearing as the good guy. Have them hold the phone up near you and shout out your info, and that you will set the weapon down as soon as you're sure there are police on scene. Repeat your physical description and clothing.
    Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.

  7. #22
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    Have you ever been proned-out in the street by a zealous pair of rookie cops?

    Be the second caller after the BG has reported you as the "man with a gun" and you too may be the winner of this exciting experience! Offer them a little resistance and you might just get to "ride the lightning" too!

    Can and does happen!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Have you ever been proned-out in the street by a zealous pair of rookie cops?

    Be the second caller after the BG has reported you as the "man with a gun" and you too may be the winner of this exciting experience! Offer them a little resistance and you might just get to "ride the lightning" too!

    Can and does happen!
    Thumper, are you speaking of a personal judgment error in your past?
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #24
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Have you ever been proned-out in the street by a zealous pair of rookie cops?

    Be the second caller after the BG has reported you as the "man with a gun" and you too may be the winner of this exciting experience! Offer them a little resistance and you might just get to "ride the lightning" too!

    Can and does happen!
    So, the alternatives are to forfeit one's Fifth Amendment right concerning self incrimination and confess to aggravated assault or to be 'proned out' because an officer fails to perform a basic investigation. Hmmm. Maybe I'll give the bad guy my wallet.

    The fact is that Arizona has proposed a law to make defensive display of a firearm a justifiable defense. Legislation is typically proposed to solve a problem. What problem could this law solve? Exactly what we are discussing here.

    The problem is not some thug waving a gun and scared off by your display of a weapon. The problem is a group of gangbangers, one of whom is holding a baseball bat, scared off by your display of a weapon. Without this new justification statute, drawing your weapon in that case is clearly aggravated assault.

    Just curious, but all these BGs that call first, how many are arrested by police afterwards since they are, indeed, the BGs. Do the police even bother to interrogate the complainant or is it more of a case of the new TV reality show, 'Who Calls First!" Watch law abiding citizens proned out after they defend themselves against thugs! Watch the cell phone race to see which of tonight's contestants get through to 911 first! Vote for innocent woman or gangbanger tonight! Call 767778 on your cell phone. Press 'A' for Criminal, 'B' for innocent woman. Charge of $0.99 applies.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    So, the alternatives are to forfeit one's Fifth Amendment right concerning self incrimination and confess to aggravated assault or to be 'proned out' because an officer fails to perform a basic investigation. Hmmm. Maybe I'll give the bad guy my wallet.

    The fact is that Arizona has proposed a law to make defensive display of a firearm a justifiable defense. Legislation is typically proposed to solve a problem. What problem could this law solve? Exactly what we are discussing here.

    The problem is not some thug waving a gun and scared off by your display of a weapon. The problem is a group of gangbangers, one of whom is holding a baseball bat, scared off by your display of a weapon. Without this new justification statute, drawing your weapon in that case is clearly aggravated assault.

    Just curious, but all these BGs that call first, how many are arrested by police afterwards since they are, indeed, the BGs. Do the police even bother to interrogate the complainant or is it more of a case of the new TV reality show, 'Who Calls First!" Watch law abiding citizens proned out after they defend themselves against thugs! Watch the cell phone race to see which of tonight's contestants get through to 911 first! Vote for innocent woman or gangbanger tonight! Call 767778 on your cell phone. Press 'A' for Criminal, 'B' for innocent woman. Charge of $0.99 applies.
    Hey SelfDefense, I do not appreciate you implying I said or meant any of what you posted after quoting my post.

    If someone, anyone, reports you as a man with a gun who has threatened someone, I GUARANTEE... until the police have ascertained the facts you WILL be treated as a dangerous threat! It CAN happen. THAT is all I meant.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  11. #26
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Hey SelfDefense, I do not appreciate you implying I said or meant any of what you posted after quoting my post, and in respect of this forum, I am using great restraint in this reply.
    Thumper, I'm sorry if I offended you or the other forum members. I did not intend anytihng but to strenghen my argument with a bit of humor. I'm not good at being funny. I just don't find this decision [of calling 911 in all circumstances] as clear cut as everyone else. Prior to this newly proposed law was introduced I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But since then I have given the matter a lot of thought.

    If someone, anyone, reports you as a man with a gun who has threatened someone, I GUARANTEE... until the police have ascertained the facts you WILL be treated as a dangerous threat! It CAN happen. THAT is all I said.
    That really is the point. If I call and admit I have a gun and threatened someone the scenario is not different at all. I reported myself as a man with a gun. Shouldn't I then be treated as a dangerous threat?

    I have no doubt it could (and probably would happen.) I think this law will do more to prevent the second guessing that might cost someone their life.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Thumper, I'm sorry if I offended you or the other forum members. I did not intend anytihng but to strenghen my argument with a bit of humor. I'm not good at being funny. I just don't find this decision [of calling 911 in all circumstances] as clear cut as everyone else. Prior to this newly proposed law was introduced I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But since then I have given the matter a lot of thought.



    That really is the point. If I call and admit I have a gun and threatened someone the scenario is not different at all. I reported myself as a man with a gun. Shouldn't I then be treated as a dangerous threat?

    I have no doubt it could (and probably would happen.) I think this law will do more to prevent the second guessing that might cost someone their life.
    I apologize if I over reacted... I'm sure I did.

    Okay, here's the sad part... it did happen to me. (You were right Sticks!)

    I ran off this guy from my fenced back yard, I drew my weapon at low ready and did not ever point it at him. He jumped over my fence and took off yelling threats. I did not immediately call the police but checked my garage and windows etc.
    About 4-5 minutes later I called the police. The dispatcher asked if I had a gun... I had never mentioned my gun, then she said the police were at my front door and wanted me to go out to them without my gun, I still had never mentioned a gun. As I walked to my door and opened it I was pulled to the ground and handcuffed. As this was happening I saw the guy that I had run off from my back yard standing on the opposite corner with his cellular still to his ear!

    Long story short, he called first, said I pointed my gun at him and threatened to kill him... and if that wasn't bad enough, I used to be a LEO in the next city over!

    A lot of paperwork later, this "guy" is FI'ed and that's all. His word against mine and no witnesses.

    I can laugh about it now and learned a lesson about calling 911 first but it had me really PO'ed for a very long time.
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
    superior skills."

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Self Defense,
    The way I read it all that new law does is give a statutory definition of what is a defensive display of a firearm. It doesn't provide any legal protection that does not already exist under 13-405. In fact this law could be interpreted as limiting the scope of what is considered a defensive display. We are walking down the street and a bad guy jumps out brandishing a knife and threatens to kill us if we don't give him our money. Under 13-405 we would be justified in threatening (pointing a gun at him) or using deadly force. If the law says we are legally justified to do what we did, we are not guilty of assault or aggravated assault. That does not mean we won't have to raise that issue in a court room. But under the new law, my aiming my weapon and not firing at the bad guy can no longer be considered a defensive display. I could still argue justification under the current statute but it would make my defense that much tougher. On the other hand as it is written would allow you to draw your weapon and go to low ready if I pushed you in line in Walmart.
    I think it needs to be rewritten. The is too much room for judicial activism and interpretation.
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  14. #29
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Self Defense,
    The way I read it all that new law does is give a statutory definition of what is a defensive display of a firearm. It doesn't provide any legal protection that does not already exist under 13-405. In fact this law could be interpreted as limiting the scope of what is considered a defensive display. We are walking down the street and a bad guy jumps out brandishing a knife and threatens to kill us if we don't give him our money. Under 13-405 we would be justified in threatening (pointing a gun at him) or using deadly force. If the law says we are legally justified to do what we did, we are not guilty of assault or aggravated assault. That does not mean we won't have to raise that issue in a court room. But under the new law, my aiming my weapon and not firing at the bad guy can no longer be considered a defensive display. I could still argue justification under the current statute but it would make my defense that much tougher. On the other hand as it is written would allow you to draw your weapon and go to low ready if I pushed you in line in Walmart.

    I think it needs to be rewritten. The is too much room for judicial activism and interpretation.
    I understand your point and your Walmart example is why some are pushing back. However, I see a great deal of difference between the proposed legislation and 13-405. The difference is that 13-405 justifies threatening deadly force in response to deadly force. The new law will allow defensive display of a gun against the lesser criterion of physical force. That is why I made a point in my example of the baseball bat versus the gun. Sure, we all know the bat can be a deadly weapon, but in fact, a knife or gun is more likely to be seen by the state as a deadly weapon in reference to 13-405.

    It is interesting to note that even though Arizona is an open carry state if one were to open one's jacket showing your concealed weapon (going from concealed to open carry) it is still aggravated assault if done in an intimidating manner to counter a potential threat. This law will justify that action in the presence of a threat of physical force.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Thumper, I had a similar experience.

    I heard a guy tried to get into my back yard, (windows open, and heard gate lock slap back and forth) this guy then went to the front door, and rang the bell, and knocked hard on the door. When I open the front door, I found this guy with his hands cupped, looking into my kitchen window.

    As I walked out the door, he turned and walked toward me with something in his hand.

    I pulled my pistol from the small of my back, and said for him to stop there.

    He turned and ran to his car, and I noticed that he had in his hand what looked like a 4-5 inch knife.

    Shaken, I walked back inside, and put some clothing on. (I only had a bathing suit on at the time.) When I walked back to the main part of the house, I noticed two deputiesís walking in my front yard. I walked out to great them, and was slammed against the wall, and searched.

    After starting to read me my right, (I interrupted them and finished the Miranda) they asked me for my side of the story, and I told them. (There response my word against his) Asked if I use to be a cop, and I said yes.

    They then asked to search my house for firearms. I said why you know I have a CCL; therefore, I must have guns, and if they really where intent on doing that, I wanted to speak with my attorney.

    They arrested me, stuffed me in the back of the car, and went in my house anyway.

    Sure, I was released the following day, and all charges where dropped and few weeks later I got a call with an apology from the DA.

    From this whole experience, Iíll tell you one thing I learned, Iíll be the first one calling the COPS from now on.

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