Lethal force to prevent child abduction?

This is a discussion on Lethal force to prevent child abduction? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by dukalmighty If somebody tries to abduct my G/daughter the last thing they hear will be the sound of my 45,In Texas i ...

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Thread: Lethal force to prevent child abduction?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array bluelineman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    If somebody tries to abduct my G/daughter the last thing they hear will be the sound of my 45,In Texas i have the right to us lethal force to prevent a kidnapping
    Correct & I agree. Texas § 9.31 & § 9.32 cover this.

    Unless they could run faster than 985 fps, they're in trouble.

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  3. #17
    Member Array rmarcustrucker's Avatar
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    In Ohio I'd have to feel the child was in fear of being killed or very hurt. But lets not forget only about 100 abductions in the U.S.A are from true "strangers". The vast majority are from non-costodial parents and a few from "known family members and friends".

    If we're talking about the creepy guy offering candy or puppies and trying to get the kid into the black van, all bets are off. I'll be judged by 12 then the unthinkable happening.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    In CO, lethal force is allowed to prevent kidnapping.

    Having said that...I have no children, and only have one friend that has one. I would have to be REALLY sure about the situation before I acted with my CC - READ - It would have to be that one kid and the abductor is someone I do not know.

    Otherwise, my first act is to call 911, get description of the abductor and vehicle and attempt to detain (block exit) or follow until police arrive.
    Sticks

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    The attacker being unarmed really doesn't mean much when you're considering the safety of the child. The disparity of force "capability" between an adult and a child should be obvious. That being said, I remember reading somewhere that the average child killed by an abductor has something like 24 hours, or 48 hours to live. Time is absolutely critical when it comes to stopping them -- hence the nationwide amber alert systems.

    Your worst case scenario would be that you "impede" someone who has a right to take the child. In that case, such a person is likely to respond favorably (from your perspective) to looking down the barrel of a gun and cooperate.

    Having never seen an abduction, I expect it would be obvious.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array cdwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEFan View Post
    I don't have kids but I can say with relative certainty that if someone was abducting my nieces or nephews I would not hesitate to shoot them and would be quite ok with facing a jury for doing so, even if the end result is going to prison. I can't even begin to imagine living with the fact that I might have been able to keep one of the little ones from harm but chose not to because I was afraid of what might happen to me if I did.
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  7. #21
    New Member Array rjnsn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeGoob View Post
    Talk on the radio brought up in my mind a situation that I didnt know right away how to resolve: Can you use lethal force to prevent a child from being abducted? Of course it might not be clear if something is a true abduction if you dont know the child--it could be horseplay or a parent dealing with an unruly kid, but if you KNEW the child was being abducted (your own kid etc) could you use lethal force?

    If the abductor was unarmed?
    Here in the people's republic of Massachusetts, lethal force would almost always result in court action. Having three children I can say, without any hesitation, that I would go to jail with a smile on my face for having done the right thing. Someday our legislators will legalize freedom again and we will ALL be able to defend ourselves without fear of imprisonment for doing so.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    I would have to be REALLY sure about the situation before I acted with my CC - READ - It would have to be that one kid and the abductor is someone I do not know.
    This is an important point. If not a child you know, then how would someone know for a fact that an abduction was occurring?

    Getting in the middle of a husband/wife squabble often ends up with both turning on the responding police officer(s). Ask any LEO.

    Getting in the middle of a screaming child and an adult at, say, a park, might be just as dangerous to do. Having been to many parks with young kids (babysitting with friends, etc), not a day goes by without a few of the kids at the park going haywire and the (presumed) parents having to dole out a little tough love. Sometimes this involves heading to the minivan for a "timeout." Unless the child is screaming about being abducted (and is thus old enough to know and name that), how exactly does one identify an actual abduction worthy of involvement, let alone force?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Getting in the middle of a screaming child and an adult at, say, a park, might be just as dangerous to do. Having been to many parks with young kids (babysitting with friends, etc), not a day goes by without a few of the kids at the park going haywire and the (presumed) parents having to dole out a little tough love. Sometimes this involves heading to the minivan for a "timeout." Unless the child is screaming about being abducted (and is thus old enough to know and name that), how exactly does one identify an actual abduction worthy of involvement, let alone force?
    Well, again, it comes down to whether or not you know it's an abduction. If you feel weird about it, it's not okay to run over brandishing a gun. But it's definitely okay to make a 911 call. If, on the other hand, it's overwhelmingly obvious what's happening, that would be a different deal.

    It's a tough situation, because we would ALL want to do the right thing.

    The OP did ask whether or not lethal force was okay to stop an abduction, so the underlying assumption was that you would be stopping an abduction.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  10. #24
    Member Array STORMVET's Avatar
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    This is one of the biggest reasons I carry; that is for the protection of my two daughters. Everyone knows how most abductions turn out, I'd rather sit in front of a jury for protecting my child than to sit on the front pew at my childs funeral. An abduction is not a wait and see what happens kind of thing. If you are watching something like this, it could possibly be the very last time you see that child alive. Regardless of what the law says, as a parent it is your responsibility to protect your children as much as possible. Depending on the situation, I'm going to bust a cap.
    The most and best is known to the man who quits his bed before sunrise... who spends his days on the mountains and forests...who bears the heat and cold and hunger and thirst, for the love of nature...to visit the utmost refuges of beast and bird .....Alfred Pease

  11. #25
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    If it is my child, or a grandchild, or a family members child that I was absolutely positive was being abducted. I would do whatever was necessary to prevent it, including the use of deadly force.
    A strange child on the street. I would probably keep my weapon holstered and call the police giving them all the details I could, including vehicle discription and licence number.
    You have no way of knowing if it is truely an abduction or a unruly child not wanting to go. It could also be a parental custodial dispute, in which case you would be in a definite no win situation. Is the child being forcefully removed from the non custodial parent, or is it the other way around?

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    If it isn't your kids involved, how do you know what is happening?

    I'm not questioning the applicability of the use of force to prevent a kidnapping...I just want to know how you are going to be able to determine the nature of the situation so you can apply the correct level of force.


    Just because someone shouts "Stop that man, he took my baby!" doesn't mean it is so.

    Maybe he is the custodial parent, the mother (who has a problem with being bi-polar and drinking) just didn't want to give the kids back that day as the court ordered, and decided "I'll fix you!!"...

    Or maybe it really is a kidnapping.

    How do you know what situation you are in so you can determine the correct response?

    You may be dozens of yards away with your own kids, and suddenly a woman shouts "Stop that man, he took my baby!" while pointing toward a man with a 3 year old in his arms.

    If he is a kidnapper, yeah, fine. He committed suicide by taking he kid but didn't have the grace to do it without borrowing your ammo...

    But what if he isn't?

    And what if you are with your kids as the only adult? Do you leave them to intercept the suspected kidnapper? Take your 4 or 5 year old into a potential gunfight?

    Everyone wants to do the right thing.

    Well, what is the right thing?

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I just want to know how you are going to be able to determine the nature of the situation so you can apply the correct level of force.
    Exactly so.

    Very likely, the abductor isn't a complete idiot and is schmoozing the child into being abducted, hence it won't be obvious at all. At best, what we're all left with (not knowing this child on the other side of the park) is one thing, and one thing only: note the license plate of the car and description of the car/occupants, then call 911/police to relate the story.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Just because someone shouts "Stop that man, he took my baby!" doesn't mean it is so.
    I'm having second thoughts about this scenario...

    Would it justify any confrontation at all? In such a case, as with most cases, 911 calls are a requirement. Lets break it down further:

    Man holding a baby isn't a good target anyway. But is giving chase and restraining in order? That's one of the problems of these scenarios.. they simply aren't detailed enough. Given a video of the potential scenario we could all break it down and say, "I would..."

    Lets think of this one, since we have video... it's the 11 year old, Carlie Brucia kidnapping: YouTube - Carlie Brucia Abduction She was later found dead.

    Given the video, it might warrant approaching the guy, but certainly not drawing down him. The tips in my mind are in her body language and the fact that he's leading her by the wrist and not the hand. Certainly if I saw such a thing, I'd follow and call 911 at the very least. If given the opportunity, I might approach and ask if everything is okay and "are you with him?" to the girl.

    That's the kind of fairly "tame" abduction that are probably most common, rather than the violent kicking and screaming sort, unfortunately.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    An instance in which you would have a good likelihood of knowing if something is a kidnapping or not is if you were assigned to watch the children at a church function.

    If someone enters the area and talks to a child, then starts leading them off, that's more of a situation in which you know something isn't kosher.

    Just be careful what you get into and how you get into it.

  16. #30
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    Like ANY other situation, being a third party makes it difficult to execute a hasty decision...however, attempt to make a hasty decision to kidnap my grandchild and I will 'execute'...errrr, make that 'stop the threat'...
    Last edited by RETSUPT99; March 23rd, 2008 at 04:46 PM.
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