Lethal force to prevent child abduction?

This is a discussion on Lethal force to prevent child abduction? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; CHILD ABDUCTION FALLS UNDER KIDNAPPING WHICH IS A (FEDERAL ) FELONY IN ANY PART OF TH USA IF YOU ARE WITNESSING THIS TAKEN PLACE YOU ...

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Thread: Lethal force to prevent child abduction?

  1. #76
    Member Array DIRTY HARRY's Avatar
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    Child Abduction

    CHILD ABDUCTION FALLS UNDER KIDNAPPING WHICH IS A (FEDERAL ) FELONY IN ANY PART OF TH USA IF YOU ARE WITNESSING THIS TAKEN PLACE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE DEADLEY FORCE IF NEEDED TO PROTECT THE CHILD FROM ABDUCTION AND I DONT THINK THAT ANY JURY OR COURT WOULD CONVICT YOU FOR SAVING A CHILDS LIFE IN TODAY'S TIMES WITH ALL OF THE SEXUAL PREDATORS GOING ON EVERY DAY IN THIS COUNTRY OF OURS

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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRTY HARRY View Post
    CHILD ABDUCTION FALLS UNDER KIDNAPPING WHICH IS A (FEDERAL ) FELONY IN ANY PART OF TH USA IF YOU ARE WITNESSING THIS TAKEN PLACE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO USE DEADLEY FORCE IF NEEDED TO PROTECT THE CHILD FROM ABDUCTION AND I DONT THINK THAT ANY JURY OR COURT WOULD CONVICT YOU FOR SAVING A CHILDS LIFE IN TODAY'S TIMES WITH ALL OF THE SEXUAL PREDATORS GOING ON EVERY DAY IN THIS COUNTRY OF OURS
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  4. #78
    Member Array whyipackmy45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    If somebody tries to abduct my G/daughter the last thing they hear will be the sound of my 45g
    I had to check on this because I thought a .45 would be supersonic, but it's not. So, yes, they would hear the shot before feeling it
    That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about a hundred and nine, ninety five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shop smart. Shop S-Mart. You got that?

    http://www.nevadashooters.com

  5. #79
    Distinguished Member Array C9H13NO3's Avatar
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    I don't have kids, but if I did...

    Armed/unarmed, threatening/nonthreatening, if someone is kidnapping my child, they will not live to see the next hour, regardless of any laws.
    -Ryan

    All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

  6. #80
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    If someone is trying to abduct my granddaughter, I will use all necessary force including lethal force to stop it. Period!

    If I witness what appears to be a child abduction of a kid I do not know, there will be a more measured response. I will play it as I see it, but I am all too aware of what happens to children abducted by predators.

    I'd rather take an ass chewing from an angered parent for mistaking what appeared to be a good impression of an abduction at the time than to watch the manhunt and anguish play out on the news over the next few weeks, months or years as a result of something I could have prevented.

    If I got into legal trouble, I would have to bring up John Cooey & Jessica Lundsford, and hope for the best at trial.

    Besides, the charges against me would more than likely be for something along the lines of assault rather than manslaughter.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I would.

    Do I fear for the child's life?

    Yes.

    Then smoke the BG.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by FknRa View Post
    hmm kid getting kidnapped... go watch man on fire but hopefully with less dieing in the primary role
    Read the book...

    100% better than the movie and a lot less dying in the primary role!

  9. #83
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lange View Post
    I'm thinking deadly force isn't neccessary. People who come after children are usually bigger, stronger, etc...so the neccessity to carry a weapon to abduct them isn't really there for them. Tell them to back down, draw the weapon, they should, if they are smart, stop and leave.

    And secondly, if they're abducting a child, I'm assuming they are close range...what's the danger of hitting the kid?
    Quote Originally Posted by Paco View Post
    Agreed, not to mention that they are really just adult sized bullies and if confronted by someone who is not afraid of them they will most likely run. Unless they kick in to the fight mode of "fight or flight", then you would need to defend yourself as you see necessary.

    Now here is where it can turn to vigilante justice real quick, this monster was already trying to take 1 child, if you save the kid and the knucklehead runs, he can then try again.

    I would suggest in that situation, if you are with others, you tell someone to call 911 and then try to find a safe and legal way to either hold the person or follow them in a safe way so the Police can take the monster off the street, at least for the night.
    As someone who has been abducted, I am afraid you may be looking at abductors in a very pale and creamy light.

    You may have a few who are just overgrown bullies who will back down when confronted, but more than likely you are going to face a very dangerous person.

    Abductors are already showing their true aggressive nature by snatching someone from public view. They don't fear the general public and in many cases they are more than ready and willing to fight with whoever may step in their way. For whatever reason--because they are angry, feel justified in their snatch, are that desperate, or just that arrogant--they are going to flaunt their crime before the whole world and some of them get a real sick pleasure out of knowing that no one is stopping them. It emboldens them and makes them very confrontational.

    And as to the safety of the child, if you confront an abductor and corner him (or her) you may be giving him no other choice than to hurt the child earlier or threaten to hurt the child as a means of escape.

    So you corner an abductor and tell him to let the child go. Suddenly he changes his grip from around the child's waist to his neck and says that if you don't get away he'll snap the child's neck. You think he won't do it? As stated, most children who aren't found within 48 hours after an abduction are presumed dead. He's more than likely going to kill the child anyway, this way it's just a little early, but now he's giving you the choice, kill the child now, in front of you, or let him go to probably kill the child later.

    It was VERY clear to me that the man who abducted me VERY MUCH enjoyed taking me from the seat of publicity. His whole body WANTED confrontation and he would have LOVED to see anyone try to stop him and still take me anyway. He was VERY cocky and arrogant and didn't give a crap for what the other people around us thought as he dragged me from that restaurant. He even slammed me up against the wall just outside the front door talking to me and threatening me for at least one whole minute before continuing.

    He didn't run out of the building. He walked deliberately, dragging me with him like a toy. He didn't even hurry when he got me in the van. It was like he WANTED someone to try to stop him.

    He was not armed. He had no weapons to speak of on his person (which of course, no one would have known) but being with him for the hours afterward and seeing his attitude and his arrogance and his self opinion, I have no doubt that he would have gladly taken on anyone who tried to stop him. It would have been a rush. My defiance is what set him off in the first place. It fed him and his rage. Someone standing up to him would have made him more violent. In turn he would have taken that out on me.

    I'm not saying that no one should have stood up to him. What I'm saying is that if someone were to have stood up to him it would have been best for me and for the situation if they did it quickly and violently before he had time to let the rush build and respond. I'm not even saying they should have shot him (per say) as long as they were ready to do battle with a bull. I'm saying that confronting him would have unleashed his fury (which he very much was keeping in check at that time (believe it or not)) and whoever confronted him probably would have gotten a LOT more than they were asking for. He more than likely would have even sneered at a gun. I doubt he would have even backed down for the police. The only thing that would have stopped him was force.. and a lot of it. And I guarantee that his last act on this earth would have been to try to hurt me as much as possible.

    After all, that was his ultimate goal.

    Not many people get to spend time with an abductor while he is committing his crime and live to tell about it when they are not accomplices.

    Knowing, first hand, my abductor, I will NEVER just assume someone abducting ANY child is a bully who will back down when confronted. And I will certainly ALWAYS respectfully fear them and what drives them.

    The passion (misplaced as it may be) that drives a person to do something as bold and heinous as abduction is something to be feared in and of itself. He doesn't see right or wrong. He doesn't see danger or fear. He sees his mark and that's it. He is so driven by his goal that he will stop at NOTHING (not even a kindly citizen) to get what he want.

    In some of these people that drive has been building for days, weeks, months, maybe even years and anyone stepping between them and what they want better well be cautioned that this is a dangerous individual who isn't just going to give up when they've come so close to their twisted victory.

    As for myself? I will never be able to view a predator as anything less than a vicious felon who needs to be stopped quickly and before they can carry out any harm to the child. If they drop the child and the child is recovered and a safe distance away then we can negotiate, but if that child is still in their hands I'm not giving them the chance to take that one with them.

  10. #84
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Very good post, thank you for sharing your experience. It will certainly provide some insight to anyone who may encounter this very scenario.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  11. #85
    Member Array Henry's Avatar
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    Incredible insights, Limatunes, and who can say when such knowledge will be useful to one of us. I thank you for sharing (and for your being able to share) this with us.

    But I can't help shuddering when I think about how you came to know these things.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    And as to the safety of the child, if you confront an abductor and corner him (or her) you may be giving him no other choice than to hurt the child earlier or threaten to hurt the child as a means of escape.

    So you corner an abductor and tell him to let the child go. Suddenly he changes his grip from around the child's waist to his neck and says that if you don't get away he'll snap the child's neck. You think he won't do it? As stated, most children who aren't found within 48 hours after an abduction are presumed dead. He's more than likely going to kill the child anyway, this way it's just a little early, but now he's giving you the choice, kill the child now, in front of you, or let him go to probably kill the child later.
    I'll take him at his word. If he threatens to kill the child, then to my mind there is no longer any grey area here - he's an imminent lethal threat to the child, and I'll treat him accordingly by the use of whatever degree of force is needed to stop him.

    In real world terms, this means he gets shot to the ground with no further debate, discussion or warning.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    It was VERY clear to me that the man who abducted me VERY MUCH enjoyed taking me from the seat of publicity. His whole body WANTED confrontation and he would have LOVED to see anyone try to stop him and still take me anyway. He was VERY cocky and arrogant and didn't give a crap for what the other people around us thought as he dragged me from that restaurant. He even slammed me up against the wall just outside the front door talking to me and threatening me for at least one whole minute before continuing.

    He didn't run out of the building. He walked deliberately, dragging me with him like a toy. He didn't even hurry when he got me in the van. It was like he WANTED someone to try to stop him.

    He was not armed. He had no weapons to speak of on his person (which of course, no one would have known) but being with him for the hours afterward and seeing his attitude and his arrogance and his self opinion, I have no doubt that he would have gladly taken on anyone who tried to stop him. It would have been a rush. My defiance is what set him off in the first place. It fed him and his rage. Someone standing up to him would have made him more violent. In turn he would have taken that out on me.

    I'm not saying that no one should have stood up to him. What I'm saying is that if someone were to have stood up to him it would have been best for me and for the situation if they did it quickly and violently before he had time to let the rush build and respond. I'm not even saying they should have shot him (per say) as long as they were ready to do battle with a bull. I'm saying that confronting him would have unleashed his fury (which he very much was keeping in check at that time (believe it or not)) and whoever confronted him probably would have gotten a LOT more than they were asking for. He more than likely would have even sneered at a gun. I doubt he would have even backed down for the police. The only thing that would have stopped him was force.. and a lot of it. And I guarantee that his last act on this earth would have been to try to hurt me as much as possible.
    This reinforces a philosophy I've held for a long time regarding witnessing an abduction - I will not be the last person to see the victim alive while I sit back and watch. I'd far rather risk confronting an innocent parent or guardian than go home and watch the news report on the missing child, then the search, then the discovery of the body.

    Note that this does not mean drawing on the adult - but it means a verbal challenge and reacting as the situation develops. It may mean calling the police, it may mean use of force. Hopefully not, but sometimes doing the right thing means not doing the easy thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    After all, that was his ultimate goal.

    Not many people get to spend time with an abductor while he is committing his crime and live to tell about it when they are not accomplices.

    Knowing, first hand, my abductor, I will NEVER just assume someone abducting ANY child is a bully who will back down when confronted. And I will certainly ALWAYS respectfully fear them and what drives them.

    The passion (misplaced as it may be) that drives a person to do something as bold and heinous as abduction is something to be feared in and of itself. He doesn't see right or wrong. He doesn't see danger or fear. He sees his mark and that's it. He is so driven by his goal that he will stop at NOTHING (not even a kindly citizen) to get what he want.

    In some of these people that drive has been building for days, weeks, months, maybe even years and anyone stepping between them and what they want better well be cautioned that this is a dangerous individual who isn't just going to give up when they've come so close to their twisted victory.

    As for myself? I will never be able to view a predator as anything less than a vicious felon who needs to be stopped quickly and before they can carry out any harm to the child. If they drop the child and the child is recovered and a safe distance away then we can negotiate, but if that child is still in their hands I'm not giving them the chance to take that one with them.
    Copy that. It is, IMHO, a testament to your strength of will and character that you were able to survive your ordeal and thrive afterwards.

    Thanks for sharing your insight with us, Lima.

    Matt
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  13. #87
    Member Array xd.40sub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Zaria View Post
    Although I don't have kids, if I did and I was in such a situation, I would not hesitate for a milisecond. I'd rather face a court for murder than have a child taken away and potentially raped/killed. I don't care if the abductor is armed or not. If that child leaves your sight with the stranger, there's a good chance you'll never see him again.

    This is one of the few times I'd say "screw the law, do what you need to do". Family comes first.

    However, I don't think many juries would convict you for it, if the case was reasonably clean-cut.

    Peace,
    Pete Zaria.
    +1 pete. there is no way I would let some one take my child without fighting with all I have to prevent it.
    do what you can with what you have where you are at (theodore roosevelt)

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array InspectorGadget's Avatar
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    If in doubt and the kid is scared, (before I say this I am against warning shots) shooting out the two near tires would slow the car down, and deliver a clear message "The next shot is for you". The Charge if any would be discharging a fire arm and Damage to property. Shooting near the kid unless you were already on top of the guy and had a clear shot is a really dangerous thing. If there are any prosecutors or lawyers I am curious about my opinion?
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  15. #89
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    All I can say is: If it were my one of my children, God have mercy on his soul cuz I ain't gonna!!! Can I get an Amen my brothers and sisters!!

  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeGoob View Post
    ....but if you KNEW the child was being abducted (your own kid etc) could you use lethal force?

    If the abductor was unarmed?
    armed or unarmed, they're going down.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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