Massad Ayoob ...

This is a discussion on Massad Ayoob ... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Tubby45 Ayoob is not a lawyer. He has shown that he does not understand the rules of evidence. He cannot advise anyone ...

View Poll Results: Massad Ayoob - Yes or No?

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  • Massad is a Lethal Force God! 100% correct!

    89 23.30%
  • Massad knows his stuff ... 80% of the time.

    218 57.07%
  • Massad - I agree with him about 50% of the time.

    41 10.73%
  • Massad Ayoob? Who is he?

    21 5.50%
  • Massad - I rarely agree with what he preaches, or his methods.

    13 3.40%
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Thread: Massad Ayoob ...

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Ayoob is not a lawyer. He has shown that he does not understand the rules of evidence. He cannot advise anyone on the admissibility of evidence.

    Ayoob is not a ballistician, a forensic pathologist, or a trauma surgeon. He is not a scientist. He cannot testify in theory about many of the things he writes about.

    All he can speak to is the actual use of force. That is his expertise. He can analyze a scenario and offer an expert opinion whether force was appropriate.
    I haven't seen him claim to be any of those things he is not. He is an expert witness on the use of lethal force, yes, and a pretty good one, too.

    Can you provide examples of his problems with the rules of evidence? Why would he even be involved in anything to do with admissibility? As you said, he isn't a lawyer.

    He is an advocate against using handloads, while Speer and Hodgdon support handloads for defense. And after repeatedly asking, Mas' still has yet to produce any case number or reference other than his own writing... kinda makes you think, doesn't it?
    No, he doesn't have a reference, but he at least has a reason for his position, and I don't recall him going house to house making sure that good, law-abiding armed citizens don't use handloads. But for those who've asked his opinions on the subject, he can give a well-thought out answer.

    Yeah, it does make me think---makes me think he gives a lot of thought to lethal force issues, and makes me think that he is, therefore, somebody whose advice I would want to seriously consider.

    Edited to add: Oh, now that I think of it, while Mas is not a lawyer, he does have prosecutorial experience. His jurisdiction in NH allowed officers (I forget what extra certification was required) to serve as prosecutors in court, and he did so. I would expect, therefore, that he does have a passing familiarity with the rules of evidence.
    Last edited by kazzaerexys; April 2nd, 2008 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Extra info.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazzaerexys View Post
    ...Nobody is always 100% correct, but what Ayoob really has going for him is he has really thought through everything he teaches, and yet is still willing to learn more about the subject. You may not agree with any one particular thing he says, but I guarantee you that he can explain clearly and articulately why and how he came to his answer.
    Agreed Kazz.

    He is clearly a very well educated person in regard to his specific field of study, work, and instruction/consulting.
    Personality, perceived motivations, and trimming aside the man knows what he's talking about and not just in a cursory broad outline scope.
    I don't understand why so many people hate on him including a couple of instructors I've taken courses with that have either hosted/instructed Mas on a couple given subjects and a second who knows of him via industry relations. Both have publicly spoken ill of Mas but it came off to me as nothing more than raspberries and to a good degree jealousy of Mas high profile appeal.
    I figure wanna be like Mas, then right some good books and get yourself a magazine column then wind up on PDTV (as Clint Smith has done too...who I like alot) and from there begin scoring yourself jobs as a consultant and 'expert' in various court cases that result in wins.
    It's that easy...or is it.

    Thus far to me most of the stuff Mas states in books and elsewhere including PDTV is nothing more than uncommon sense and cop view street knowledge mixed in with a little bit of generic medicine here and data analysis there as well as a smattering of martial art/bio-mechanical compliance & submission tech teaching.

    No one person knows all but many persons know a lot.
    Studying under and making use of information from the many persons makes one a more rounded and most knowledgeable student of the subject matter.

    - Janq is a fan of Ayoob and a devotee to no one 'expert'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Cruise the forums. Lots on GT, TFL, THR, TF, etc. More in the past than in the current. Might be archived. It's old news. TGZ had a few write ups I recall. Don't know if they are still available.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  5. #34
    Member Array Airborne Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    He is an advocate against using handloads, while Speer and Hodgdon support handloads for defense. And after repeatedly asking, Mas' still has yet to produce any case number or reference other than his own writing... kinda makes you think, doesn't it?
    I have never read him advocate against using handloads, although it sounds feasible. I have read and heard him advocate using the exact same loads that LEOs carry ... which is something that used to be frowned upon until he came along and helped-us-out in that regard imho.
    What you think about, you do ... what you do, you become.

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Never met the guy....Have been reading his gun magazine stuff since I was a kid and now have read his books......Hes on the list of people I would like to shake hands with. Along with Uncle Ted, and Selleck.

    Heard hes addicted to Rolling Rock Beer.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  7. #36
    Member Array 45Dave's Avatar
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    I do not consider him a "God" but am in no position to argue with his well thought out positions and perspectives on lethal force and self defense. I chose the first option and quite frankly would enjoy taking a class or two from him. I have talked with experienced trained people in Law enforcement & Government positions who have nothing but good things to reference to his work. To the best of my understanding he does not try to pass himself off as anything he is not such as lawyer/scientist ect rather simply as a person of background, training, experience and always a learner.

  8. #37
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    He's just another man who had done well selling a product to the masses, and for that I admire him.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airborne Falcon View Post
    I have never read him advocate against using handloads, although it sounds feasible. I have read and heard him advocate using the exact same loads that LEOs carry ... which is something that used to be frowned upon until he came along and helped-us-out in that regard imho.
    Me and a few others have battled it out with him on the forums. Anytime handloads for carry came up on GT or TFL, he came in and spoke against them, stating that we should use what cops in our area carry. Apparently so we look like we want to be cops or something.

    We ask him to find a case, one case, where the use of handloads was detrimental to the outcome in a self defense situation. The only case he cites is, of course, his own article on a woman who committed suicide with here husband's gun that was loaded with his handloads. They weren't allowed to introduce the other handloads of the same load for ballistic testing and he's in prison right now. That case did involve handloads, but was not a self defense situation.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  10. #39
    Member Array detroit9mm's Avatar
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    I never put any person on a "God" pedestal as there is someone already sitting there. However, he has dedicated his life to the use of "lethal force" and he is popular for a reason, he is good. That being said, while I have read a couple of his books and lots of his articles, he seems to embellish things a bit. Just my opinion!

    (I would not hesitate to go LFI if I had a chance to though!)

  11. #40
    Member Array Airborne Falcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    We ask him to find a case, one case, where the use of handloads was detrimental to the outcome in a self defense situation. The only case he cites is, of course, his own article on a woman who committed suicide with here husband's gun that was loaded with his handloads. They weren't allowed to introduce the other handloads of the same load for ballistic testing and he's in prison right now. That case did involve handloads, but was not a self defense situation.

    He does seem to generically quote cases some times, and they are hard to vet ... not that I do not believe him. I've always wondered myself, if all the talk about prosecutors going after those of us who reload, "extra hard," are urban myth or not. I'd like to see more specifics as well ... the more specific information made public in that regard would only be a good thing for us in the long run imho.
    What you think about, you do ... what you do, you become.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I carry my own handloads, but I'm a licensed ammunition manufacturer so technically they are factory. Sort of a gray area. I carry ammunition that I load. That's better.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  13. #42
    Member Array Whyveear's Avatar
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    I voted that I agree with 50%. He really knows his stuff in some areas but not so much in others. I have seen trainers crash and burn trying to be a SME in everything. He should stay in his lane. He'd have more credibility that way.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Regarding the handloads question, there is in fact a case you can ask Mas about that was an "Ayoob Files" article awhile back in American Handgunner; It was the Daniel Bias case, and it involved his girlfriend committing suicide. The big sticking point in the case was the prosecution not being able to replicate the ballistic performance and powder residues to back up Mr. Bias' story. From my understanding, mas did what he could for Mr. Bias, but he ended up doing some jail time. The reason Mas is so adamant about using factory or LEO ammunition is for both civil and criminal reasons. The civil part being the defense that the ammunition you used was recommended by a police officer, or was the regular duty issue ammunition issued by the local police. The criminal part is simple in that if you use a factory load that is easily traceable by investigators, ballistic performance and powder residues can be easily verified, along with your story of how things went down......

    Of course, all the doubters can ask Mas this himself, he will be happy to email you back.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tubby45 View Post
    Me and a few others have battled it out with him on the forums. Anytime handloads for carry came up on GT or TFL, he came in and spoke against them, stating that we should use what cops in our area carry. Apparently so we look like we want to be cops or something.
    Ayoob never in his LFI-1 class stated that we should use what the cops use. He suggests it, because then a zealous prosecutor is SOL trying to argue that you used "particularly deadly" ammunition. Your defense lawyer just tells the jury that if the rounds are good enough for the cops to protect themselves/the public, they are good enough for you. (Oh, and that last little unnecessary jibe of yours is utterly at odds with the fact that Ayoob's own spoken and printed words never blur the line between cop and armed citizen; he knows the difference and expects his students to, as well.) What he does state is that one should always, if at all possible, use reliable expanding ammunition for a defensive handgun.

    He also explained his reasoning against handloaded ammo, something which also shows up in his posts in this thread on the High Road. To summarize, though, he basically points out that ballistic tests are used to determine such things as the distance from which the shot was taken. If you did not use factory loaded ammo for which exemplar testing ammo is available from the manufacturer, then you could be unable to introduce a potentially vital piece of evidence in your own defense (i.e., the GPR pattern that shows the badguy was six feet away with the knife, as opposed to thirty feet away like the prosecutor claims).

    No, he did not provide case references. My own take was that this advice was provided simply as another way to maximize the chances of a good outcome if involved in a defense shooting---Ayoob's idea of a good outcome extending well past the actual shooting itself and into the social and legal aftermath, as well.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    I haven't read a lot of his stuff but I think 80% covers my feeling about what I have read.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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