Massad Ayoob ...

This is a discussion on Massad Ayoob ... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've got to share some things after reading this entire thread again this morning. 1) What prompted me to start this thread was a discussion ...

View Poll Results: Massad Ayoob - Yes or No?

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  • Massad is a Lethal Force God! 100% correct!

    89 23.30%
  • Massad knows his stuff ... 80% of the time.

    218 57.07%
  • Massad - I agree with him about 50% of the time.

    41 10.73%
  • Massad Ayoob? Who is he?

    21 5.50%
  • Massad - I rarely agree with what he preaches, or his methods.

    13 3.40%
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Thread: Massad Ayoob ...

  1. #61
    Member Array Airborne Falcon's Avatar
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    I've got to share some things after reading this entire thread again this morning.

    1) What prompted me to start this thread was a discussion that I was involved in, more as a listener than a contributor, over at my Rifle Club last weekend. It was similar in nature to the tone of this thread.

    2) Pretty much everyone agrees that Mas is the leading expert in the field of "Use of Lethal Force," even if there are others who may be more "modern" in their approach ... and I am not sure how I, or anyone else for that matter, would define "modern in approach?" ... but I paraphrase the general wording in an attempt to cover the conveyed thought process in a generic fashion.

    3) One thing I did hear quite a bit of is, and again I paraphrase, "Some of what he teaches, especially the hand-to-hand defensive/offensive stuff, will get you in trouble, or worse yet - killed." Most of that was countered with, "Yeah, but it's better than nothing, it gives you confidence at at least act, and the more you know - the better," ... that was the gist of it.

    4) We had a couple of attorneys involved in the discussion and, while both of them are avid shooters and permit holders, neither seemed to support the idea that Mas' contribution in a trial would carry a lot of weight. Both agreed that it may have "at one time or another" but that procedures in the court/legal arena/system have progressed beyond the particular need for expert witnessing in that regard insomuch as a plethora of precedence has been set, over the years, that except for the most extreme and confusing cases .... that sort of expert witness testimony would not be necessary. Those with Doctorials are the exception.

    5) IMHO, I'm glad Mas is out there ... just incase. You never know.

    6) There are more commonly used "Expert Witnesses" out there these days. Two off the top of my head that were mentioned, one I have actually met before, that are frequently used in shooting cases are Alexander Jason and Rick Ernest who are both, if I am not mistaken, also Forensic Experts ... Rick may be a Ballestician as well, I can't remember. But the important thing that was stressed to me is, that if you need an expert witness, make sure he is reputable and credible and has the credentials to back-up what his testimony because it will be called into question. I doubt there are many that compare with Mas in that regard ... probably could be counted on two hands.

    Again, I am stressing that these bulleted items are as much about what I absorbed in the course of listening to the conversation, as they are my personal opinion.

    7) Mas has become a little bit commercialized to some degree. Who could blame him? I would too were I him. Plus, and I can type about this with some degree of understanding ... and that is that; it is incredibly tough to keep things fresh and new when you are producing the volume of infomation that Mas has obligated himself to produce over the years. I mean I can only begin to imagine the difficultly in coming up with new stuff week after week after week. It's gotta be tough. So my point is, that in the process of trying to do so, there are going to be times when you might put something out there that is of lesser quality than on those days when you are really in a groove. We all know the feeling.

    8) Mas is a friend to all of us by proxy. Pure and simple. He is not on the other side in any shape, way or fashion.

    9) I think a lot of people familiar with his writings over the years, and his show segement and perhaps even his class, know far too little about his background. I heard a lot of questions such as, "How many years in Law Enforcement?" "How many years in competitive shooting ... and how successful was he?" "How many years of training in hand-to-hand, and what discipline and rank?" Etc ... so that is going to happen when you start having "Expert" appear before your name. That's why we have courtesty titles such as "Dr" and "Captain" and so on ... because it implies a certain degree of training and qualification. That confuses some people when you see "Expert" placed before a name and, typically, they want to know how that moniker was awarded - is the claim justified? I personally defended him in that regard sheerly based upon time of service and years of contribution without knowing any specifics I might add. I've been reading the guy for years, among other things.
    Last edited by Airborne Falcon; April 4th, 2008 at 12:58 PM. Reason: spelling and grammar were, simply put, bad
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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array wht06rado's Avatar
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    He deffinatley knows his stuff. But I wont say that anyone is 100% correct 100% of the time. So I voted for %80.

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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    AF you said you overheard
    Both agreed that is "used to," but things in the court system have progressed beyond that particular need for expert witnessing in that regard insomuch as so much precidence has been set over the years that except for the most extreme and confusing cases .... that sort of expert witness testimony would not be necessary.
    I submit that expert witnesses are as outmoded as the jury is . In areas where science is sound ( such as dna , blood splatter , ect.. ) expert witnesses are used because a jury can put a face on facts . Look what a good team of expert witnesses did for OJ as an example . The jury made a decision based on who and what they paid attention to and for the record OJ is innocent because a jury said so . If i am ever again in a dust up involving ballistics i hope to have Mas on the stand . If i am in the right he will help explain my actions , If i am in the wrong he will help hang me from the judicial yardarm . I am confident enough of my skills and my decision making to want an expert such as Mas to be involved tho if push comes to jury .
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  5. #64
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Since the direction of the discussion has changed a little, I'll jump back in. What Ayoob can provide as an expert witness is the ability to make a kneejerk, non- (or even potentially anti-)gun juror understand that your choices really were reasonable at the time you decided to pull the trigger. If you shot in SD and face a trial, that is what has to be overcome---convincing the jury that you had areasonable fear of death and thus were justified in shooting.

    Other witnesses may better cover forensic evidence and ballistics analysis, but what Ayoob attempts to do is to get the jury inside your head so that they see the situation the way you did when you had a split second to make the decision whether to shoot. If it came down to me being in that situation, I would absolutely want him to perform that service on my behalf.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    I have been in contact with Mas, and he is on the road right now but has promised me that as soon as he gets planted in a hotel somewhere he will share specific information regarding the reload issue, which i will dutifully pass on to everyone here.....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  7. #66
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Ayoob is Chuck Norris' worst nightmare.

    Seriously, I am a big fan of his work.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

  8. #67
    Member Array Whyveear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
    Ayoob is Chuck Norris' worst nightmare.
    That's because he wouldn't let Chuck do his thing for fear of a lawsuit.

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Ok, here's my reply from Mas:

    I was told by Mas that he would have already replied on this thread himself, but forgot his password. He said he would get back to it after he got home, or I could post his reply. Here it is:

    "NJ v. Daniel Bias and NH v. James Kennedy are the two cases I use to teach the point. Both were discussed in the same issue of American Handgunner back in 2006 or 2007 and may show up on Google.

    There are threads archived at TheHighRoad and TheFiringLine where these cases are discussed in depth.

    There is also a thread a month or so old at Smith-Wessonforum.com , I believe on 9mm ammo selection but drifting into handloads, in which a poster describes three cases he's aware of in which handloads were an issue in the lawsuits that followed shootings, one of which the defendant lost.

    Some folks just can't accept the truth...

    best,
    mas"

    That is a reply he sent me about 20 minutes ago...... feel free to Google away for the examples and surf the forums for the others.

    See? Ask and you shall receive.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Repairs View Post
    ...Look what a good team of expert witnesses did for OJ as an example . The jury made a decision based on who and what they paid attention to and for the record OJ is innocent because a jury said so.
    just a minor point of contention, and maybe just semantics, but no jury ever declared O.J. Simpson Innocent!

    Juries do not do that. They find people Guilty or Not Guilty.

    O.J. was found Not Guilty based on the juries deliberation of the evidence presented at trial... but no one declared him innocent.

    The only people as far as I know that have ever been found or pronounced INNOCENT were the Duke LaCross Players when the States Attorney made a profound public proclamation stating that not only were the defendants not guilty, but they were totally innocent of any wrong doing.
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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    I was told by Mas that he would have already replied on this thread himself, but forgot his password. He said he would get back to it after he got home, or I could post his reply. Here it is:

    "NJ v. Daniel Bias and NH v. James Kennedy are the two cases I use to teach the point. Both were discussed in the same issue of American Handgunner back in 2006 or 2007 and may show up on Google.

    See? Ask and you shall receive.
    Neither of those two cases involved a personal defense shooting.

    Bias was a suicide case where girlfriend or whomever supposedly shot themselves, and lots of bad judgement was used by parties relating to accessability to firearms by mentally unstable individuals.

    Kennedy was a discharge during an arrest by LEO. He was acquitted.

    Neither of these directly relate to the use of handloads in personal defense situations. I do not know what the gun laws and self defense laws are in NJ or NH, but I would venture to say they are nothing like they are down here in Texas. Additionally I don't find what years those cases were. The years those cases came to trial and political/social enviroment and many other factors could very well have been issues in Kennedy. Next cases please.

    I have not voted in this poll, simply because I have not read or studied Mas.'s stuff. About all I know of him is what I see on PD TV and what has been talked about in this forum. I am most certain that he has some things that we all can learn from. What those things are is very dependant on each individual and each individuals personal experiences and their enviroments.

    If he was 100% on all matters, there really wouldn't be a need for any other instructors in the world would there. I don't think all the other instructors plan on quitting any time soon.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #71
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    Concerning Mas on PDTV
    - Please remember that he is attempting to teach very basic stuff to folks that may have little (or no) other prior SD training.
    He speaks very clearly, concisely, & methodically for that reason.

    It's a very serious endeavor - attempting to teach basic personal defense maneuvers and measures to a television audience made up of people with totally unknown qualifications.

    So (of course) he comes across as being extremely careful in choosing his exact words.

    That should probably not be confused with merely sounding monotone.

    I think that his appearances on PDTV have been great for him.
    People who have read his past books and articles can see for themselves (On Big Screen Living Color) that he is not an "armchair guy" and that he can really get out there and do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by rathos View Post
    I find his books and articles great, but his segments on PDTV sorta hard to watch. I think he tells a great story, but for some reason in person he is just very monotone. I would definately like to have him in my corner if I was involved in a shooting. I think if he would have been involved with those poor border agents the outcome might have been different.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by detroit9mm View Post
    I never put any person on a "God" pedestal as there is someone already sitting there."


    I love his articles in Combat Handguns and would definitely want him in my corner!!
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  14. #73
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    You might not agree with everything he says, but one thing I just gotta say;

    He has made a name for himself over the years as a authority on the topic. If he was full of BS, we would not even know his name like every shooter does.
    Is he pumped up a little by his promoters? Yes, its about money and selling materials to us, the end user.

    I've had the chance to be a part of a few trials both civil and criminal as a result of shootings. Everything is fair game! Factory ammo was used in each case I was involved in, but it always was brought up. Why that specific brand/load was chosen etc.
    I would not want to have to defend my handloads as well as my actions, plain and simple. Its a huge burdon to take on, with no real benefit. Maybe I'm putting words in Mas's mouth, but I think thats the point he is making.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    This thread has been drifting a bit, and I am into it late in the game, but the arguement about ammo type just doesn't hold water with me. I understand the comment made by Sixto about everything being fair game in a trial, and he has the experience, along with others here and other places to back up thier statements about what can and does come up in a trial. I feel confident and hope that these things, although being brought up, have no weight in the actual outcome of the cases.

    To me, if it is a justified shoot, the type of ammo used, although it is a fact that it will be brought up, is no more relavant to a self defense shooting than the type of automobile that you drive if you have an accident. You are not more guilty if you are driving a Jeep than a Chevrolet, Ford or whatever in an accident if the other person ran the red light. IE, you didn't ask for the person to attack you or whatever, or ask that the person run the red light. They did it and it is their fault, not yours. Any defense attorney or defendant worth two cents should be able to shut down any arguement and have that line of questioning excluded from the actual facts of a defensive shooting case.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  16. #75
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    Any defense attorney or defendant worth two cents should be able to shut down any argument and have that line of questioning excluded from the actual facts of a defensive shooting case.
    You assume too much there. Most defense lawyers wouldn't know how to shut down an argument about the use of hand loaded ammo. They don't know enough about ammunition to even ask basic questions about it.

    I've sat in few courtrooms myself, and I am continually amazed at the things that they don't know.

    They don't know what we know. That's exactly why things that are no brainers to us seem like a major challenge to them.

    If the use of factory ammo eliminates some stupid discussion about it in a courtroom by people that don't have a clue what they are talking about, then I'm all for it. Its my guess that Ayoob understands this and chooses not to go there.
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