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Massad Ayoob ...

This is a discussion on Massad Ayoob ... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Would it be reasonable to say that your main advice in regards to carry guns, ammo and other accessories is to ...

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  1. #91
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Would it be reasonable to say that your main advice in regards to carry guns, ammo and other accessories is to do what you can to minimize claims of excessive force, negligence or uncomfortable questions by avoiding as many such things as possible that would give rise to such issues in the aftermath of an incident, provided such modifications to your carry gear do not significantly harm your combat effectiveness?
    Then wouldn't it also be adviseable to move to a state that takes a more favorable possition on persons who act in self defense when in a legitimate possition to use deadly force. If the goal is to minimize your possibility of law suits in the event your required to use deadly force, then there are definately some states that are better to live in than others. There are four or five states that come to mind that are not at all friendly to people taking an active part in self defense measures. Is it recommended that people not live in those states, thereby reducing their risks of claims of excessive force, negligence, or uncomfortable questions?

    If our goal is to minimize problems that might come up in the event we are forced to use deadly force, then I can be confident that since I live in Texas, (there are others similar to our state) that I have reduced my possibilities of inquiry in the aftermath of a self defense action more so than any other action I could take regarding to weapon, ammo or other accessory.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  2. #92
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    farronwolf, I happen to agree with you, hence, http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...se-merged.html

    But Mas is speaking to a national, even global audience. Personally, I find most of his material well thought out, and if I don't agree with everything he says, it is at least thought provoking.

    To tell you the truth, the fact that he took time out of his day to read and post to this thread speaks volumes about his commitment to an armed and responsible society.

    (I kinda wish he would of voted in the poll, though...)
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  3. #93
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    Well, my goal certainly isn't to maximize the problems that might come up at trial either.

    Some things tend to become red herrings more than others... I do what I can to minimize potential problems...

    For example, I'm not going to make any statements in the aftermath that eludes to how many rounds I think I fired... Exactly how far away from the the subject was... How long it took from one action to happen until the time I fired...

    All those things are naturally distorted when you are in full body alarm. Things come into play such as auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, distortion of time, etc. etc.

    They are natural human phenomenons that effect everyone differently, to different extents, and even not at all.

    Lawyers know that... prosecutors know that... yet time and time again, unscrupulous lawyers will try to make you out to be an intentional liar if the physical evidence proves something different than what you told responding officers in the immediate aftermath.

    They aren't kidding around when they say "anything you say, can and will be used against you!"

    You may be able to successfully deflect those attacks on your credibility, but it takes time, effort, and extra expense to do so... and even then it may not keep those statements from biting you in the butt.

    That's part of what got Bernhard Getz in trouble in the NY Subway Vigilante case in the late 70's.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  4. #94
    Senior Member Array Pitmaster's Avatar
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    Every situation is balance of multiple factors that you have no control over the outcome. Each one of us has to balance those factors for what we believe is best for us.

    I choose to carry a full size 9mm, Walther P99 in an IWB, with a 16 round magazine. I'm making trades in comfort, size, for extra rounds and my gun preference. I also have a Glock 30 that I occasionally carry and like but its a tad heavy to wear with my body type causing my pants to slip down.

    I prefer factory ammo for carry. Primarily I don't know enough about reloading to make my own. Whether I ever go that route is down the road.

    Some may choose to give a warning before shooting if possible. That could be an option depending upon circumstances. Its all about our choices.

    There are many things way out of our control. So I trust my own judgment. Right or wrong, its mine.
    Pitmaster

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    HAGAR: To sign a peace treaty with the King of England.
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    HAGAR: First we gotta negotiate...

  5. #95
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    If our goal is to minimize problems that might come up in the event we are forced to use deadly force, then I can be confident that since I live in Texas, (there are others similar to our state) that I have reduced my possibilities of inquiry in the aftermath of a self defense action more so than any other action I could take regarding to weapon, ammo or other accessory.
    So being a resident of the Republic...Er, I mean, the State of Texas, would you make statements to the police without asking for an attorney in the immediate aftermath of a use of force incident?

    Would you forgo counsel if asked to come down to the police station a few days later to "chat about the incident and clear up a few questions they have about the shooting, because, odd as it is, the criminal has a different story than you do...you know how things go..."


    I mean, you are the good guy. You live in Texas.

    You don't have anything to worry about.

    The fact that they have a contradictory story about the shooting and it may become an attempted murder is something only someone from Boston needs to be concerned about...Right?

  6. #96
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    So being a resident of the Republic...Er, I mean, the State of Texas, would you make statements to the police without asking for an attorney in the immediate aftermath of a use of force incident?
    I probably would not make any statements in the immediate aftermath.
    Would you forgo counsel if asked to come down to the police station a few days later to "chat about the incident and clear up a few questions they have about the shooting, because, odd as it is, the criminal has a different story than you do...you know how things go..."
    Yes, I would.

    I mean, you are the good guy. You live in Texas.

    You don't have anything to worry about.

    The fact that they have a contradictory story about the shooting and it may become an attempted murder is something only someone from Boston needs to be concerned about...Right?
    I don't know, I've never lived in Boston. But, I, personally, living in Texas do not worry about a charge of attempted murder in a defensive shooting.

    I will avoid all altercations I can and do my best to stay out of bad situations. I don't go walking down dark alleys at 3 a.m. I don't want to be a hero and I don't go looking for situations where I can 'save the day'.

    I know the laws of my state very well, and I know the applicable statutes for use of force, and they are pretty broad.

    Would it go to the Grand Jury? Yes. Would I be a little nervous waiting for the result? Probably. Would I go out and get a second mortgage to retain defense council? Nope.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  7. #97
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    All those things are naturally distorted when you are in full body alarm. Things come into play such as auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, distortion of time, etc. etc.

    They are natural human phenomenons that effect everyone differently, to different extents, and even not at all.

    Lawyers know that... prosecutors know that... yet time and time again, unscrupulous lawyers will try to make you out to be an intentional liar if the physical evidence proves something different than what you told responding officers in the immediate aftermath.
    Actually, you have a very skewed view of the legal field.

    Its somewhat more funny and horrifying at the same time.

    No.

    They DON'T all know about those things.

    Prosecutors aren't all police officers who got law degrees who then switched from the Department of Public Safety to a position in the Department of Criminal Justice.

    Many of them just applied after law school because its a nice, cushy job with a steady paycheck, good dental plan, vacation time and no billable hour requirements.

    They don't know any more about auditory exclusion, tachypsychia, or distortion of time under stress, because the most stress they have been under was the bar exam.

    Even worse...

    Most defense attorneys don't know about it either. You have to let them know its an issue to deal with.

    If you make a statement, even if you don't really know what the hell you were saying at the time, it is admissible under the rules of evidence as an excited utterance, based on the theory that you couldn't have been lying when you said it because it was so spontaneous that their wasn't time to think of a lie.

    The statement you feel should be ignored because you said it as you were in shock is one that the law admits in spite of it being hearsay.

    Even in TX: Texas Rules of Evidence (Eff. 01/01/07)

    See rule 803(2)

    TX isn't that different from the rest of the USA.

    For better or worse...

  8. #98
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    So being a resident of the Republic...Er, I mean, the State of Texas, would you make statements to the police without asking for an attorney in the immediate aftermath of a use of force incident?

    Depends on the situation. If they just broke through my window or door at home, sure I would tell the LEO's whatever they wanted to know.

    Would you forgo counsel if asked to come down to the police station a few days later to "chat about the incident and clear up a few questions they have about the shooting, because, odd as it is, the criminal has a different story than you do...you know how things go..."

    Again depends on the situation, hopefully, the criminal would not be able to tell his story, because if I pull my gun to shoot him, I intend on him being dead.

    I mean, you are the good guy. You live in Texas.

    You don't have anything to worry about.

    The fact that they have a contradictory story about the shooting and it may become an attempted murder is something only someone from Boston needs to be concerned about...Right?

    Again, if I am forced to the level that I have to use deadly force in an attack, I don't intend on the BG being able to tell his side of the story. And, no I would not want to be in Boston or the state of Massalostyourrights when having to explain why I shot someone if God forbid that ever happens. I will stay here in Texas or someplace else where common sense is more prevalent.
    Every sitiation is different, so, I can't answer what I would do with a blanket statement. Just like I don't know how much force is needed without being in the situation at that very moment.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #99
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Every sitiation is different, so, I can't answer what I would do with a blanket statement.
    Why not?

    I mean, you live in Texas. Life is simple their.

    You don't have overly ambitious prosecutors with political ambitions who are happy to destroy your life for their own political pandering special interest groups in exchange for support in their state senate election...

    Or police officers who would be happy close an open case, no matter what the results would be...

    Or elected judges who want to keep their bench, and thus do what they must to keep their constituents happy...even if it means throwing you under the jail...

    Right?

  10. #100
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Why not?

    I mean, you live in Texas. Life is simple their.

    You don't have overly ambitious prosecutors with political ambitions who are happy to destroy your life for their own political pandering special interest groups in exchange for support in their state senate election...

    Or police officers who would be happy close an open case, no matter what the results would be...

    Or elected judges who want to keep their bench, and thus do what they must to keep their constituents happy...even if it means throwing you under the jail...

    Right?
    Mitchell, if you think all of those things are normal, then I am afraid the North East has fallen further than I had thought.

    And the DA, police and judge still have to get it past a Grand Jury, and our Grand Jury's are notoriously stingy with indictments for a self defense shooting.
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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  11. #101
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    MitchellCT,

    I tell you what. Spend a little bit of time doing a bit of research about the questions you are asking. Read the news stories, court cases, or lack there of, relating to incidents of self defense in Texas or some of the other states with common sense laws. Heck even read through this forum here. Then compare how those events are handled to some of the not so common sense states and then you can answer that question for yourself I suppose. Things are not always equal. If I want I can put a loaded rifle in the back window of my truck and drive down the road here in Texas I can, try that in MA, or IL. I believe it is still legal in Texas to walk into a bar, or most any other place with a long gun. (not that I am going to be doing this) Try that in some other states. Look at these two threads, and then tell me how they would be handled in some other states. I believe in MA or IL, both parties would be held in jail. They certainly would not have handed back the shotgun in the latter. They would want to know why it wan't disassembled and locked up unable to be used effectively.

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-incident.html

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...-2-videos.html

    The answer to your questions are pretty simple whether or not you choose to find them.

    All of this has nothing to do with the original intent of this thread. Again I have not voted in the poll, because I don't know enough about Mas. That being said, I don't have anything against him, and haven't spoken ill of him either. I may disagree with him on one of the issues that have come up on this thread, but I think that is mainly because I am from Texas and things are much different here than many other places. Thank God.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  12. #102
    Senior Member Array cwblanco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    MitchellCT,

    I tell you what. Spend a little bit of time doing a bit of research about the questions you are asking. Read the news stories, court cases, or lack there of, relating to incidents of self defense in Texas or some of the other states with common sense laws. Heck even read through this forum here. Then compare how those events are handled to some of the not so common sense states and then you can answer that question for yourself I suppose. . . .
    Having tried case throughout the State of Texas for 38 years, I can attest that you are correct on a lot of points. However, you ignore the fact that a lot of the things that Mitchell says are accurate in all states including Texas. For example, in one county in which I have tried a lot of cases, 38 defendants were pardoned by the governor a couple years ago because of crooked LEO work. The district attorney was very skilled and agressive and was more concerned about convictions.

    Making statements or confessions following a shooting, whether or not justified, is never smart without first consulting a lawyer. In my section of Texas we call them "lawyers." In Houston we call them "attorneys," and in Mitchell's territory we call them "attorneys and counselors at law. However, whatever we may call them, the function is the same where ever you may live.

    Many believe that a request for an attorney is an admission of guilt. Upon being requested to go down to the station to answer a few questions, a good response always is, "Sir, I will be happy to talk with you, but I want my lawyer with me." The fact that you have said that you want your lawyer with you can never be used against you at a criminal proceeding.

    In summary, while I believe that Texas is a gun friendly state and the best state to live in, the learned Mitchell knoweth of what he speaks.

    P.S. Don't tell us that lawyers do not in one way or another try to slant the truth. That is why we call it an adversarial proceeding. LEO's will present their testimony in a light most favorable to their position, sometimes exaggerating, and sometimes injecting points to generate a little prejudice against the defendant. Most witnesses will lie under oath. They may not think that they are lying, but when things are slightly exaggerated, slightly taken out of context, or omissions of other facts are omitted, it may not be the exact truth. That is why we have cross-examination.

  13. #103
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    Two things I learned a long time ago...

    1) The attorneys do not raise their hand and swear to tell the truth in court like those who have to take the witness stand.

    2) It's ok for the police to lie to suspects or people they are questioning.

    Some people may look at that and go... "wow, that's not exactly fair."

    Life ain't fair... I know I'm keeping my mouth shut until after I've had a chance to decompress, regain my composure and speak with my lawyer.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #104
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    Good advise.
    "An armed society is a polite society"

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm View Post
    If I were to ever have to go to court on a shooting.....I would want him to 'expert witness' for me!

    I'd sell my house to have him on my side!

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