can't trust anybody these days

This is a discussion on can't trust anybody these days within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by edr9x23super When you get that .40 get some good Cor-Bon ammo, that will knock that Big Guy down..... that's the plan and ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    When you get that .40 get some good Cor-Bon ammo, that will knock that Big Guy down.....
    that's the plan

    and i have taken martial arts classes in the past and know enough to use a baton properly: swing across the inside of the knee and then back across the temple as their leg goes limp and they should hit the floor. or in this case maybe nuts - knee - temple lol.

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  3. #17
    Member Array wyldman's Avatar
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    or in this case maybe nuts - knee - temple lol.[/QUOTE]


    Sounds like a new dance to me

    I have taught my family one rule "TRUST NO ONE EVER"
    Sounds harsh I know but my wife has learned this lesson the hard way.
    The Bank she works at was robbed tuesday ( second time in 9 months) by one BG with a gun wearing what we call "thug wear", Hoodie, gloves, sunglasses, bandana over face jeans riding low and high dollar sneakers, he took very little money and lucky for us it was her day off.
    About 2 weeks ago she was approached on her way in to the bank from the parking lot by a guy wearing similar clothes he followed her to the door where she stop and told him if he want in he would have to go around the front doors he said nothing and kept walk towards her, Trusting No One she had already pulled her taser out when BG did not stop she armed the taser and laser sight came on she pointed at him and said back off and he took off running, she reported it and the bank thought nothing of it.
    Her bank has a no firearms policy for employees, my job is the same so during the day we carry tasers.
    Remember Trust no one and be prepared.
    Good luck.
    Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array BlackPR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    so underdressed they would have to hide a gun up their *** if they wanted to sneak one in.
    Shorts, sandals, a t-shirt and a Colt .45 is my summer outfit.
    The facts are indisputable. There is more data supporting the benefits of Conceal Carry than there is supporting global warming. If you choose ignorance, in light of all the evidence, in order to bolster your irrational fear of guns, you are a greater threat to society than any gun owner.

  5. #19
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPR View Post
    Shorts, sandals, a t-shirt and a Colt .45 is my summer outfit.
    shorts, sandals, a t-shirt and an xd .40 will be my summer outfit too, but i was talking jeans/shorts and a wife-beater. of course there's always ankle holsters with the jeans...

    i've always kept a watchful eye out, and there are a dozen or so people that i've seen carrying guns--a couple of which were in "thug wear" and made me pretty damn nervous. but in the part of town i work 75% of the people i see are in "thug wear". hence my great anticipation of my permit.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Sergeant Mac's Avatar
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    My usual summer wear is shorts, a TANK TOP, sandals, a full-size 1911 and two spare magazines.

    Pretty much, if I'm wearing anything more than swimming trunks, you can count on me being armed.

    (Then again, I DO own a SmartCarry and a Kahr PM40.......)

  7. #21
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant Mac View Post
    My usual summer wear is shorts, a TANK TOP, sandals, a full-size 1911 and two spare magazines.

    Pretty much, if I'm wearing anything more than swimming trunks, you can count on me being armed.

    (Then again, I DO own a SmartCarry and a Kahr PM40.......)
    ok ok ok point taken lol.

    on a side note, how do you like your smart carry? i was looking at them for more formal occasions (i.e. thin white button down, slacks, no jacket).

  8. #22
    Member Array Southtexas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    well my boss's wife is in charge of the store, and is co-owner, so technically she is also my boss. and they're good people and good friends, so they would have covered me if needed--though the burglars would have only gotten away with about 300 bucks, which is insured, but it's still scary to think about the "could haves" that some people would be willing to do over a few hundred bucks.



    also true. but being the type of person i am, it still pains me to think about killing a seemingly unarmed individual. although i'm sure that if i pulled a gun in this situation, they would have run if they themselves were not armed, and in which case they were armed i would have been justified in shooting them, and had the upper hand having drawn my weapon first.

    we were already robbed at gun point last year, and while i was interested in concealed carry before i know am dead set on it and will be spending several hundred dollars of my $9/hour paycheck on the firearm and associated gear.

    i'm starting to hope we get robbed by a white guy next time, because there is a certain pattern in the race of local robbers that is causing me to be unsettlingly prejudiced when sizing up strangers that enter the store, if you know what i mean. i don't like thinking that way, but most white guys that come in the store are either in suits, friendly regulars, or so underdressed they would have to hide a gun up their *** if they wanted to sneak one in.

    Please take the time to understand what I am trying to get at here, and dont take it as a "dont carry to work" post.

    First you have stated you are an employee, in a risky neighborhood, you get along well with your boss/boss's wife. Before it becomes an issue talk to your boss about his/her feelings regarding you carrying at work.

    I carry a gun, my boss hates guns, he is ok with me carrying one, he also knows that if someone is robbing me at gunpoint they are getting the money, and this is where we both agree, there is nothing in that store worth my life. Having said that he also knows that if I feel my life is in danger I will do what ever I need to do to go home to my wife, including giving away all the money in the register/using lethal force. The reason I chime in here is not to attempt to force my values on you, but to make sure that you have thought about carrying at work and when you would pull out your weapon.

    Robbery? odds are they have the drop on you, even if you are very Situationally aware, you just proved how easy it is to distract an employee at work. There is a completely different mindset you need to have when carrying, especially in a retail environment. and it is a good thing because it gives the bad guys reason to go somewhere else, preventing the crime is most important part of the job, you can do this without a weapon too. (I choose to keep one on me)


    I dont advocate laying down for criminals, just as criminals dont attack hard targets I dont advocate a gun fight on a criminals terms. You said you would have a problem shooting an unarmed person, Thats what separates you from the slimeballs who will rob/kill you. Its not a bad thing, in fact you can turn it to your advantage now by playing scenarios in your head, I call it "shoot dont shoot" "draw dont draw" "draw and shoot" "draw and withdrawl" A lot of people will tell you they wont pull a gun until they know they are going to shoot, I dont go that route, but you should know exactly what you are prepared to do now, not when it happens. For me the problem with stopping a robbery has more to do with others getting hurt. So basically if I have decided to draw I have already accepted my life was/is in danger, and will do what I need to do to stop that threat. That is the only rule for me, STOP THE THREAT, if it means giving them cash (hoping they will be nice thugs) thats an option I leave open.

    Now for the other side, regardless of how your boss feels, will you still carry a weapon to work for your protection, you still have to get to and from work, but knowing how he feels about you having a gun makes a whole different set of rules for you if he is anti gun.

    Living in the south you wont wont have as much anti gun bias as in the north but remember it is your bosses bussiness, and you should respect his wishes regarding his property EXCEPTION BEING YOUR OWN SAFETY if he says he does not want a gun on his property ask him point blank.... Are you saying you dont want me to interfer with crime, but you dont have a problem with allowing me to protect myself. If he does not want you armed that is his right as an employer. It is also a good sign to move away from that neighborhood/employer. Dont ask dont tell is a great policy as well, if you work for a corporation, but you dont, and you will know your boss/his wife better than I do. In fact you may decide not to ask, if you have gone that route then I suggest you NEVER show, if you have to use it he cant tell the court he didnt want you to have a gun to start with.

    Carrying at work is a burden, there are times I have to let things go that I would have never tolerated when I was unarmed, it all boils down to this ......... Why do you carry a gun. if its for your safety there are different rules, if its for protecting your bussiness there are different rules for some people, I merge the two, bearing in mind that my work means nothing to my family if I am dead.

    There is a reason the store down the street from me gets robbed frequently and I dont, It has nothing to do with the criminal knowing if I am carrying or not, I was cased again last saturday, and took steps to make sure the thugs knew I was not the target they wanted to hit. Stay alert and aware and most criminals find easier targets.

    KEEP THE CASH IN THE REGISTER LOW, dont break big bills for minor purchases, its not being unfriendly to the customer, its protecting yourself from being robbed. I get a lot of people who try to break their $100 for a six pack, I lose those customers to the guy down the street, of course he has also been robbed 6 times that I know of, to him its an acceptable risk to keep 200-500 in his register, and the crooks know where to get the most cash, he is good for my safety.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    that's the plan

    and i have taken martial arts classes in the past and know enough to use a baton properly: swing across the inside of the knee and then back across the temple as their leg goes limp and they should hit the floor. or in this case maybe nuts - knee - temple lol.
    I'm not sure about GA law, but ASP-style batons are illegal for civilians here in NJ. Another point is that a baton strike to the temple would most likely be viewed as lethal force as there would be a good chance the BG would die after being struck in the temple. OMO and GA might be different. I work as a LEO in NJ and our use of force guidelines view a baton strike to the head as lethal force, same as shooting someone. YMMV.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #24
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southtexas View Post
    Please take the time to understand what I am trying to get at here, and dont take it as a "dont carry to work" post.

    First you have stated you are an employee, in a risky neighborhood, you get along well with your boss/boss's wife. Before it becomes an issue talk to your boss about his/her feelings regarding you carrying at work.
    I have had this conversation with them a few times, and basically my bosses feelings come down to this: when he is not there with his wife, I am there. He wants her to be safe. He is perfectly fine with me carrying a gun and trusts that I am responsible enough to properly use it. His wife (also my boss) is kind of on the fence, but as we've been friends for over 2 years now I felt comfortable engaging her in the debate as to why I should be able to carry. Once she realized that not every robbery is pleasant and a methed-out psycho won't care if we do what he says or if he does something that would have him in jail for a LOOOOOOONG time, she's become a little more open to the idea. Her main concern is that someone would take the gun from my holster, and I don't think she fully understands what "concealed carry" is, nor how invisible the little xd will be in the MTAC under a large t-shirt. So I have her about 90% convinced, and with the 60 day waiting period for my CCW permit I think I'll have plenty of time to convince her.
    I carry a gun, my boss hates guns, he is ok with me carrying one, he also knows that if someone is robbing me at gunpoint they are getting the money, and this is where we both agree, there is nothing in that store worth my life. Having said that he also knows that if I feel my life is in danger I will do what ever I need to do to go home to my wife, including giving away all the money in the register/using lethal force. The reason I chime in here is not to attempt to force my values on you, but to make sure that you have thought about carrying at work and when you would pull out your weapon.
    The last time my store was robbed, I was 18 and there alone with the owner's wife. The guy, a normally dressed, sober looking middle-aged black guy, asked me if we had any eels, and I turned, pointed, and then looked back to him holding a gun to his side. He told me to get on the ground, but was completely calm and never pointed the weapon. I did so, but as he roudned the corner to go to the register I pulled the little CRKT stiff K.I.S.S. I had on my belt and hid it under my wrist as I crawled forward to look around the shelf to make sure nothing worse was happening. He walked my boss's wife around and had her lay down next to me, then said "stay down for two minutes or my boys outside will start shooting" then hurried out of the store. he never once pointed the gun at us, and never raised his voice or even sounded malicious, and I was never fully in fear of my life (but was ready to go down with as much fight as I could muster with my little knife if it came to that lol--yeah the cops lol'd at that too). I popped up as soon as i heard him leave and handed the phone to my boss's wife then went door-to-door to our neighbors giving them his description and heads up. I know carry a little bit bigger knife and always adopt the "after you" attitude with customers (unless they're regulars that I trust, there are very few though).

    Robbery? odds are they have the drop on you, even if you are very Situationally aware, you just proved how easy it is to distract an employee at work. There is a completely different mindset you need to have when carrying, especially in a retail environment. and it is a good thing because it gives the bad guys reason to go somewhere else, preventing the crime is most important part of the job, you can do this without a weapon too. (I choose to keep one on me)


    I dont advocate laying down for criminals, just as criminals dont attack hard targets I dont advocate a gun fight on a criminals terms. You said you would have a problem shooting an unarmed person, Thats what separates you from the slimeballs who will rob/kill you. Its not a bad thing, in fact you can turn it to your advantage now by playing scenarios in your head, I call it "shoot dont shoot" "draw dont draw" "draw and shoot" "draw and withdrawl" A lot of people will tell you they wont pull a gun until they know they are going to shoot, I dont go that route, but you should know exactly what you are prepared to do now, not when it happens. For me the problem with stopping a robbery has more to do with others getting hurt. So basically if I have decided to draw I have already accepted my life was/is in danger, and will do what I need to do to stop that threat. That is the only rule for me, STOP THE THREAT, if it means giving them cash (hoping they will be nice thugs) thats an option I leave open.
    After reading advice on this site and reading over worst case scenarios, any time I feel threatened by a customer will be greeted with a firm invitation to leave as I back up a few steps, followed by me drawing my weapon if they do anything further to worsen the situation (i.e. reaching under the shirt, into pocket, etc). if they have a weapon it will be responded to with mine directly, possibly precluded with me offering my wallet, tossing it at them as a distraction, and then drawing/firing.

    Now for the other side, regardless of how your boss feels, will you still carry a weapon to work for your protection, you still have to get to and from work, but knowing how he feels about you having a gun makes a whole different set of rules for you if he is anti gun.

    Living in the south you wont wont have as much anti gun bias as in the north but remember it is your bosses bussiness, and you should respect his wishes regarding his property EXCEPTION BEING YOUR OWN SAFETY if he says he does not want a gun on his property ask him point blank.... Are you saying you dont want me to interfer with crime, but you dont have a problem with allowing me to protect myself. If he does not want you armed that is his right as an employer. It is also a good sign to move away from that neighborhood/employer. Dont ask dont tell is a great policy as well, if you work for a corporation, but you dont, and you will know your boss/his wife better than I do. In fact you may decide not to ask, if you have gone that route then I suggest you NEVER show, if you have to use it he cant tell the court he didnt want you to have a gun to start with.

    Carrying at work is a burden, there are times I have to let things go that I would have never tolerated when I was unarmed, it all boils down to this ......... Why do you carry a gun. if its for your safety there are different rules, if its for protecting your bussiness there are different rules for some people, I merge the two, bearing in mind that my work means nothing to my family if I am dead.

    There is a reason the store down the street from me gets robbed frequently and I dont, It has nothing to do with the criminal knowing if I am carrying or not, I was cased again last saturday, and took steps to make sure the thugs knew I was not the target they wanted to hit. Stay alert and aware and most criminals find easier targets.

    KEEP THE CASH IN THE REGISTER LOW, dont break big bills for minor purchases, its not being unfriendly to the customer, its protecting yourself from being robbed. I get a lot of people who try to break their $100 for a six pack, I lose those customers to the guy down the street, of course he has also been robbed 6 times that I know of, to him its an acceptable risk to keep 200-500 in his register, and the crooks know where to get the most cash, he is good for my safety.
    we frequently have people dropping big bills, but it's usually on purchases of over $50. since the more recent incident, we have been trying to keep cash in the register at a minimum and all big bills get dropped in the safe as soon as the store's empty again. our register is also right next to a large parking-lot viewed window, which is good and bad--armed robberies would be more likely to be noticed, but so would cash in the drawer. we have mixed feelings about it.

  11. #25
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mulle46 View Post
    I'm not sure about GA law, but ASP-style batons are illegal for civilians here in NJ. Another point is that a baton strike to the temple would most likely be viewed as lethal force as there would be a good chance the BG would die after being struck in the temple. OMO and GA might be different. I work as a LEO in NJ and our use of force guidelines view a baton strike to the head as lethal force, same as shooting someone. YMMV.
    thanks for the heads-up. i'll be looking into that!

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array mulle46's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    thanks for the heads-up. i'll be looking into that!
    You're welcome.
    You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, "I have lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along." . . . You must do the thing you think you cannot do. Eleanor Roosevelt

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrhutch View Post
    ... i would not have been able to legally shoot or even draw on the individuals had they decided to use their technique on our store ...
    Really? Denied because of the robbery technique? What are the specific GA statutes that deny you the ability to carry concealed based on what method the robbers used? Seems to me that it's a crime, you're threatened and maneuvered to the back areas of the store, hence it's a reasonable presumption they're armed and you're about to be taken out of sight to be killed. Can't imagine anything more needful than carrying at that exact moment. Denied due to method? How, specifically?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  14. #28
    Member Array Fmr18z's Avatar
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    Never assume (ass/u/me) that just because someone is neatly dressed and/or is kind and polite that they don't have other motives. As for your boss's wife's concern about someone taking the pistol out of your holster, I carry a 9mm compact in a SmartCarry rig while wearing dress slacks, jeans, or shorts on a daily basis and have never been made yet...and the only way someone is going to get your pistol out of your SmartCarry holster is for you to let them stick their hand down your pants...
    You never know when a robbery is gonna go south real fast, I'd rather be prepared and have the opportunity to defend myself and others than not be prepared and dead.

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    can't trust anybody these days
    So--just when did "these days" start? Been quite a while in my book. Always trust yourself----others--get real. Anyone who doesn't have YOUR best interests in mind is----------not to be trusted!

  16. #30
    Member Array mrhutch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fmr18z View Post
    Never assume (ass/u/me) that just because someone is neatly dressed and/or is kind and polite that they don't have other motives. As for your boss's wife's concern about someone taking the pistol out of your holster, I carry a 9mm compact in a SmartCarry rig while wearing dress slacks, jeans, or shorts on a daily basis and have never been made yet...and the only way someone is going to get your pistol out of your SmartCarry holster is for you to let them stick their hand down your pants...
    You never know when a robbery is gonna go south real fast, I'd rather be prepared and have the opportunity to defend myself and others than not be prepared and dead.
    exactly, that's what i've been trying to convince her. since my boss is ok with it, i may just carry anyway (it'll be about 2 months max before my permit is fully processed, according to GA law, and from other's stories i'm sure they'll take as long as they can), where it for a few weeks and not say anything unless she asks. there's a reason i just dropped $90 on an MTAC--noone will see the weapon until it's pointed at them. i'm sure once she realizes how invisible it is she will get over her fears.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm
    Really? Denied because of the robbery technique? What are the specific GA statutes that deny you the ability to carry concealed based on what method the robbers used? Seems to me that it's a crime, you're threatened and maneuvered to the back areas of the store, hence it's a reasonable presumption they're armed and you're about to be taken out of sight to be killed. Can't imagine anything more needful than carrying at that exact moment. Denied due to method? How, specifically?
    I had thought that in order to use lethal force, you had to be confronted with lethal force. but i've been set straight by a few helpful members. i now know to address all threats as potentially lethal--best case scenario, they run/drop until the cops show up, worst case scenario i've already got a bead on 'em and they're dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod
    So--just when did "these days" start? Been quite a while in my book. Always trust yourself----others--get real. Anyone who doesn't have YOUR best interests in mind is----------not to be trusted!
    i know i know. my kindness is my weakness. i just really hate to be that person that assumes everybody is bad and treats everyone like a criminal. although i am starting to think along these lines more and more:

    "Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet"
    Last edited by mrhutch; April 9th, 2008 at 02:04 AM. Reason: edited to fix quote

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